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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ITV News interview with Susie Green

33 replies

HandsOffMyRights · 14/02/2019 11:12

This has appeared on Twitter. A snippet of an ITV news piece on 'gender diverse' children.
We are told that the other 'side'of the debate will be aired tomorrow.

This coming from an organisation whose level of diversity stretches to pigeon-holing us into regressive sexist stereotypes.

twitter.com/mattpriceITV/status/1095993350514184192?s=20

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 14/02/2019 22:30

I guess we all have aspects of this that make us particularly emotional. Jean Hatchet really cares about murdered women, some care about safeguarding,or about democracy and free speech.

In my case, I absolutely got why Posie would be in tears after hearing testimony from the parents of transgender children. I would have been crying and ranting. Which platform, whatever...there are children that need protecting. They need to be prioritised.

I don’t get Susie Green and her certainty. These are children. We cannot afford to risk getting it wrong. We cannot have, as Susan Bewley elegantly put it, children without “open futures”. Or less elegantly. We as a society cannot risk young, damaged and mutilated, adults turning around and asking why we let this happen.

I know two women,neither well, who have children who claim to be transgender. The first looks haunted, like a parent whose child is anorexic might look, and talks about her lost child, internet grooming and hormones, and the lack of support from the school. The second is cool, woke and accepting. After all transgender is the new gay. I worry about both. And breathe a huge sigh of relief that my quirky bolshie child, who spent their primary years determined they were the opposite sex, was a decade too early for all of this.

And Susie Green.

I have never had a MN deletion. But would if I wrote what I thought. How can she not consider the risks? How can she not care?

R0wantrees · 15/02/2019 08:39

I was reading a thread elsewhere about BPD and several posters said that the medical establishment wouldn't give a diagnosis of BPD before at least 18 and usually waiting until early 20s. Because they recognised that until then personality is not fully formed. So no diagnosis, no matter how closely the child meets the criteria. Because they don't want to misdiagnose.

extended article by Hacsi Horváth
'The Theatre of the Body: A detransitioned epidemiologist examines suicidality, affirmation, and transgender identity'
(extract)
"I am an adjunct Lecturer in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). I’m an expert in clinical epidemiology, particularly in systematic review methods, epidemiologic bias and evidence quality assessment. As a researcher at UCSF, I managed the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group for over a decade and on several occasions served as a consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO) in their HIV guideline development processes.

For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life." (continues)

"I don’t believe GD [gender dysphoria] reflects any kind of problem or glitch in the human body. Here’s what I suggest, in broad strokes, is going on with adolescents and adults:

Heterosexual males (the vast majority of men with GD) have autogynephilia.
Homosexual males with GD enjoy “femininity” and mistakenly believe this means they are “trans” or even women.
Females with GD have internalized misogyny and/or internalized homophobia.
In my opinion—which is based upon extensive research, as well as my own 13-year-long experience in pretending to be a woman–GD is only superficially concerned with one’s sex. It’s more a disturbance of identity, of mistaking the signifier for the signified. Patients have whatever mental illnesses they may have, or that develop while in the ruminations and hypomanic states that typically precede “coming out as trans.” I propose that GD is a moody, brooding syndrome that accompanies these mental illnesses. People with GD have cultivated an idealized vision of themselves as the opposite sex. At a critical point of rumination, after the patient has sufficiently disparaged his or her actual life and idealized life as the opposite sex, he or she realizes that body parts of the opposite sex may be obtained through the services of doctors (Raymond 1979, Billings 1982). Actually transforming into the opposite sex starts to seem feasible. The self-conception “splits” in two, and idealization becomes identity. Having negated any value in their actual male or female presence in the world, and now feeling themselves to actually be the self-generated persona, patients perseveratively ask themselves, “what’s stopping me?” “Feasibility” seems to trigger the split. Here begins the acute phase of GD.

Patients become obsessed with “transition.” To the same extent that they can be energized by the belief that they are making “progress,” as their bodies morph via the hormone drugs and shop clerks address them by their preferred honorifics (i.e. Miss or Ma’am for the males, Sir for the females), they can also feel destroyed by any little delay or perceived setback—including being “misgendered” or identified by others as their actual sex. Nothing else matters but “transition.” The apparent certainty of these patients, as well as their zeal to continue, is seen by “affirmative care” doctors as evidence of “being trans.”

Gender is a hierarchal framework that stratifies and categorizes “masculine” and “feminine” attributes and behaviors. In the context of transgenderism, it is also a convenient rhetorical device to elide the problem of sexed bodies and to label oneself as endorsing one or the other sets of sex role stereotypes. Earlier articulations of GD as “gender identity disorder” made more sense, but it seems that most people understood it to mean “having an opposite-sex gender identity.” I would suggest that it may more accurately be understood as simply an identity disorder, a disordered or disturbed identity, with a fixation on gender.

I agree with the late French psychoanalyst Colette Chiland when she said: “Transsexuals stage everything in the theatre of the body, and nothing in that of the psyche” (Chiland 2003). It is true that persons in the driven, obsessed stages of gender dysphoria can seemingly think of nothing except transition. No-one dreams of asking them to slow down, to seek psychotherapy, perhaps even find a way through this work to prevent transition, which can be costly on so many levels. It would be like standing in the way of a bolting, bucking horse. The fact that people with gender dysphoria are like this is a sign that something is wrong, yet they are not impeded at all.

But doctors are doctors and patients are patients. These surgeries and lifelong hormonal drug regimens didn’t used to be given out like crackerjack prizes. Virtually no research has been done in psychotherapeutic methods to alleviate the symptoms of gender dysphoria, prevent it, or get rid of it altogether. The entire literature comprises a couple of dozen case reports and small case series, some promising, nearly all from before 1990, and all using archaic methods. Based primarily on the pronouncement of Harry Benjamin, the “godfather” of transsexualism, that psychotherapy with these patients was a waste of time, the medical profession increasingly found ways to justify surgical and hormonal transition as the standard of care (Billings 1982). I will get back to this near the end of the article." (continues)
4thwavenow.com/2018/12/19/the-theatre-of-the-body-a-detransitioned-epidemiologist-examines-suicidality-affirmation-and-transgender-identity/

ComputerSaysMo · 15/02/2019 08:51

That is quite an article! Thank you for sharing it.

Thingybob · 15/02/2019 21:49

There are two sides to this debate of course - and we'll reflect that in item two tomorrow

Did anyone see the two reports that supposedly gave a balanced view?

www.itv.com/news/calendar/2019-02-14/increase-in-the-number-of-young-gender-diverse-people-seeking-help/

The first report was an interview with SG and footage of Mermaids kids saying they were born in the wrong body.

The second (opposing view!) showed interviews with two trans women, Ruth Rose and Michelle Bridgeman. Ruth, who knew she was a girl at 9 years old, is the eldest person in Britain to have had gender reassignment surgery and Michelle has strong links with Mermaids and says she is a psychotherapist (although according to the Daily Mail had no formal qualifications in 2016 when linked to this story)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3883880/Parents-bitter-battle-child-s-gender-Father-brands-controversial-transgender-charity-meddlers-case-mother-dressing-son-five-girl.html.

Balanced my arse!

Ereshkigal · 15/02/2019 22:11

Balanced my arse!

That's ridiculous. For balance you would need to interview Stephanie Davies Arai or similar.

Thingybob · 15/02/2019 22:17

Yes or even someone from the Tavistock would have been preferable.

Melroses · 15/02/2019 22:35

So, just more of the same!

OldCrone · 15/02/2019 22:58

You can watch both parts here if your blood pressure can stand it:

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2019-02-14/increase-in-number-of-young-gender-diverse-people-seeking-help/

Each video is about 3 mins.

Susie Green in the first one talks about Mermaids meetings as a place where children can "express themselves however they feel without being judged, without somebody looking at them and saying 'you shouldn't be doing that'..."

Are gender stereotypes really so rigidly enforced in other settings? In school, in children's homes...? And why does Susie Green think that the solution to this is changing children's bodies, rather than working towards a world without those stereotypes?

I really don't understand the mentality of people who see children who are 'different' being teased and bullied, and think that the solution to that is to medicate and mutilate those children, rather than trying to make diversity acceptable.

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