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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The Breast Book

138 replies

MilkSpill · 13/02/2019 04:31

My oldest daughter is heading towards puberty so I'm stocking up on resources to discuss it with her. I'd heard great things about the new book by Emma Pickett called 'The Breast Book' and it arrived today. I was having a flick through and lots of positives - normalising breastfeeding, discussion of sexualised media, and then hit this.

EIGHT pages dedicated to advocating for elective mastectomy.

Totally glossing over the risks, no discussion of sexuality, just basically 'someone said Jack was a girl when he was born' and off into a story of how Jack did a lot of thinking and then had his breasts cut off. Presented positively and affirmingly and in child-appropriate language.

How am I supposed to use this resource with my daughter? I can't just cut 8 pages out of the book. I want my money back.

The Breast Book
The Breast Book
OP posts:
RiverTam · 13/02/2019 15:47

I will email them tonight and copy that letter in - it is a direct argument against what is being espoused in this book, from one of their own authors.

Any way of getting in touch with MM?

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 13/02/2019 16:01

I put the letter on the twitter thread but I think she deleted the tweets. Not sure.

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 13/02/2019 16:03

Gutted, Pinter and Martin often publish really interesting books on women's health subjects.

Yes. Absolutely.

And I'm certain this book is really needed. Really needed.

It's just this particular bit is not as PC as the media et al are brainwashing everyone to believe.

RiverTam · 13/02/2019 16:07

can you link to the twitter thread, because I can't see anything other than her pinned tweet which doesn't say much, only one comment mentioning the mastectomies.

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 13/02/2019 16:24

twitter.com/Elfie41767774/status/1095630263097401344

It comes up a bit muddled. Some the discussion has been deleted I think.

She made the point that breast cancer wasn't hugely discussed as it was a book for teen girls and she'd come across/ done? research that they can sometimes get overly worried about normal tissue lumps and bumps which I think is a fair point.

However, the inclusion of the trans man's mastectomy is therefore equally highly debatable. I appreciate it's the story of 'an adult' but, safeguarding, ROGD, YouTube, etc etc.

Trousering · 13/02/2019 17:19

Any adult normalising this irreversible self harm has very questionable ethics. Publishing this guide to self harming your breasts for adolescent girls is very hard to understand. She seems to be saying they will find out anyway so best if alledgedly trustworthy adults tell them its ok.

What has gone wrong with people?

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 13/02/2019 17:50

I'm in the apparently now quirky position of thinking that a book on breasts aimed at girls in puberty doesn't need to have any pages at all on why a girl would have a cosmetic mastectomy. Because it's incredibly fucked up.

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 17:55

It comes up a bit muddled.

It looks as though her three tweets are in reverse order. They make sense if you start at the bottom and work up.

I appreciate your concerns and I considered carefully the inclusive of a trans story. I flagged it up in the message to parents/carers as every family needs to use their own language. I feel Jack’s story is an example of an adult making considered choices after years of ...
..reflection and consideration. He even expresses mixed views about the removal of breasts which I felt was a valuable perspective. I am speaking to children who are hearing fragmented versions of the trans experience from different, often unreliable throw-away sources. I felt
his lengthy and considered approach was a contrast to that. However I accept some would prefer there was no reference to his experience at all. His is one story among dozens in the book and I feel it deserves to be told.

So this is the story of an adult 'making considered choices after years of reflection and consideration'. How relevant is this to girls going through puberty?

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 17:57

Publishing this guide to self harming your breasts for adolescent girls is very hard to understand.

Can we have a response from the author and publisher as to why they think this is appropriate?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/02/2019 18:00

And how is it even appropriate?

It is it a good idea to suggest to pre/pubescent children that there is a good chance they will hate their developing body so much that they will want to chop bits off. And they can. And that's fine

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 19:04

I just want to pick up on this point that blueskies made earlier in the thread.

Children are exposed to trans thinking and gender stereotyping/ the equation of sex with gender (if only tangentially at first/ mostly) at school and in the media from younger than we like to think and if not discussed openly with an adult capable of critical thinking it seeps unexamined into their world view.

This is not an accident. This is the deliberate aim of organisations such as GIRES.

Understanding gender diversity starts here, at primary school level, before children’s views become influenced by the prejudices of the adults around them.

www.gires.org.uk/classroom-lesson-plans/

Also as observed on the police/ Mermaids training thread, these organisations are probably offering their 'training' for free, so schools will think that they are getting something for nothing - which they are, but brainwashing the children with sexist drivel probably wasn't what they signed up for.

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 13/02/2019 20:10

I would agree that I'd want to discuss this critically with my child and I do think there's a place for this. Unsure if this is it.

From what I remember from reading the images, breast binding was briefly mentioned by the transman. There's no further discussion about it nor the huge numbers of health risks to ribs, breathing, developing breast tissue, skin etc.

My big concern would be that a child would go off and google binders and all
the associated stuff on YouTube without any information in the book. Or they already have and read it as a positive thing as it's in that book. It's ' all ok.' this adult made a decision after lots of careful thinking but had likely been binding for some time. This was skimmed over.

Then, in other parts of the country and world we have breast ironing...

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 13/02/2019 20:31

Obviously you'd want to discuss these things with your children. I have with mine.

But what other unneccessary body modifications need addressing in a book aimed at teens and preteens about breasts? As we've mentioned breast ironing, is it needed to have a good few pages about the practice, just to make sure the idea is covered so no one feels left out?

What next, a book on the female reproductive system below the waist with a 'neutral' inclusion about FGM as just another thing that girls have done?

Enough with this cutesy choicey 'top surgery' euphemism bollocks. It is entirely unjustified to present a cosmetic mastectomy to teen and preteen girls as anything good.

FeministCat · 13/02/2019 20:41

Let me get this right: apparently the book describes that implants are "a big decision that has to be thought about very, very carefully". She briefly discusses the risks of implants including pain, degrading of the implants, difficulty breastfeeding, and surgical complications.

But a double mastectomy for a young girl who might not be entirely comfortable with the idea of growing breasts (which is not at all abnormal at that age, especially as they are often uncomfortable and painful due to hormonal changes and growth, often increase one being subject to the "male gaze", can also increase teasing, may interfere with sports at times (and especially are painful when one gets smacked in the chest), mean uncomfortable bras for many (since many women still wear wrong bra size), and so on) is just discussed in such a passing manner as an option that might be suited for some?

I have had double mastectomies for preventative reasons (hereditary breast cancer risk). Risks of such surgery and mastectomies - which were well researched and well explained - include negative reactions to the anesthesia - including death, pain - including for some chronic pain, infection, tissue/nipple necrosis, bleeding, significant scarring, possible lymphedema (as some nodes always get caught up in the removal of tissue) and yeah, not just a risk of loss of breastfeeding, but absolutely no breastfeeding. Also other more minor inconveniences like how the hollow left by the absence of your breast tissue in your armpit makes it hard to shave your armpits (if you desire) properly or without nicking yourself). Then there is that recovery period where you can't lift anything for a while, anything above your head for a while longer, and get to walk around with drains for a while, emptying them at least twice a day.

Breasts are body parts. Mastectomies are an amputation of those body parts. They may not have bones and so on, but dismissing them as so easily removed if one is not comfortable with them- to pre-pubescent/pubescent girls - is horrific. I know for even women diagnosed with breast cancer who are recommended to get mastectomies as part of their treatment, the decision can be a difficult one, even if they don't always "love" their breasts.

I have a hard time buying a version of "The Penis Book" would so casually portray removing one's penis or testicles. After all, some pre-pubescent/pubescent boys might not want their penis either!

I am sorry, this just really angers me. Especially as an adult woman with a significant family history of hereditary breast cancer who had to navigate through a complicated system to get the mastectomies that were highly recommended to me by high risk clinicians and geneticists I consulted with (and my sister is going through same thing now). And I am fine with that, as frustrating as it could be, as it makes sense that everyone along the line wanted to be sure I was sure. I often feel reading these kind of things that I should have just walked in to any local doctor's office and said I identify as a male instead; I could have probably saved 1.5-2 years of genetic consults, genetic testing, referrals to surgeons, then to plastic surgeons, and so on.

Bluerussian · 13/02/2019 20:43

Charming indeed! Elective mastectomy my eye. I'm appalled.

0ttoline · 13/02/2019 20:55

I'm really gutted to see Pinter and Martin publishing this. So much so that I rereg'd here to say so.

Some of their books have meant a great deal to me and my children, and have helped me grow in confidence regarding my body and my place in the world.

In fact I thought their ethos was about body confidence and celebrating what our bodies can do.

I would have loved a book like The Breast Book for my daughters as they get closer to puberty, but I won't be buying one that normalises the amputation of healthy breasts.

Pretty well all women, as we grow up, have negative feelings about our breasts for one reason or another, right? That's why a book like this is a wonderful idea, and the section on cosmetic breast removal is such a totally terrible idea.

Until now I would have trusted a Pinter and Martin book to have a healthy message about bodies.

MilkSpill · 13/02/2019 21:36

She made the point that breast cancer wasn't hugely discussed as it was a book for teen girls and she'd come across/ done? research that they can sometimes get overly worried about normal tissue lumps and bumps which I think is a fair point.

But girls whose breasts bring feelings of dysphoria - including those who wish their breasts were bigger and want implants - get space in the book?

This is gatekeeping, deciding on behalf of girls what issues they are allowed to be informed or worried about.

Why can't the book discuss the risks of breast surgery AND provide reassuring information about normal lumps and bumps and how to self examine for breast cancer?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 13/02/2019 22:53

She made the point that breast cancer wasn't hugely discussed as it was a book for teen girls and she'd come across/ done? research that they can sometimes get overly worried about normal tissue lumps and bumps which I think is a fair point.

It's interesting that she can see that this might make girls worry unnecessarily about their health, but she can't see that encouraging children to think about their 'gender identity' is causing so many of them to think that there is something wrong with them and 'discovering' that they are transgender.

Voice0fReason · 13/02/2019 23:07

It is so disappointing to see this. I worry for the girls growing up today.
I watched that video of the 4 women who had detransitioned and it was so clear how strongly they were influenced by the media and messages they were exposed to.

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 14/02/2019 02:00

Why can't the book discuss the risks of breast surgery AND provide reassuring information about normal lumps and bumps and how to self examine for breast cancer?

Yup.

It's normalising mastectomies and augmentation but not for their true purpose.

The sexualisation of women's bodies, feeding into worries about self image, adding to self harm.

I'm waiting to see if there are any further responses from them before I post a screen shot of a further tweet.

dunnowhatillcallmyself · 14/02/2019 02:11

Actually they're not deleted but the whole thing is very muddled probably due to how we've replied to each other.

MilkSpill · 14/02/2019 08:11

@MNHQ I see you have deleted my comments containing photos of the chapter we are discussing?

I bought my copy of the book fair and square from book depository online. Not a pre order. I don't understand how P&M can be claiming that it's not published yet?

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 14/02/2019 08:47

According to Amazon it's not out until 14 March Confused

RiverTam · 14/02/2019 09:01

They've obviously released some copies early. They are fair enough deleting these screenshots as it's before the official pub date - they don't even have 'look inside preview pages on Amazon.

RiverTam · 14/02/2019 09:02

I imagine they'll be having words with TBD!

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