The direction of the TWAW debate.

[Awall1776]

Does anyone have any information about politicians, establishment figures and media pundits who first thought TWAW changing their minds? Sorry for the odd post. But I’m trying to workout how the direction of the debate is moving. I’ve only just come across this idea myself in the last year or so.

It's a push down agenda, coming from above, with push back when the public realise what's happening.
More of the public are seeing it, however politicians, the police and anyone with any power are firmly set and nothing is going to move them.

changing their minds about? Who coined the term TWAW?

it's a bit like saying "GiraffesAreZebra" or "ChairsareTables"
People are nodding in agreement, whilst knowing that this is in fact not true.

I think the whole self-Id consultation was kicked off with a rallying cry of TWAW, and I suspect the government thought it was going to be a minor debate about a trivial matter.

Only now they’ve discovered that it’s more contentious than the Montague’s vs the Capulet’s on steroids. I suspect the government wish they’d never raised the subject (like Brexit!), but having opened the door they now have to deal with what comes through, and either choice on self-Id will mean metaphorical blood on the carpet, and for a government with a wafer thin majorly - the last thing they need is bad publicity. So I wonder if they will find some way of deferring the whole thing to a much later date.

I'm sure the hope is to kick it into the long (long, long) grass. However it's too late for that to work. Thanks to Mermaids, Stonewall et al, much has already been slid into law and policy, TRAs have intentionally targeted and colonised any services or groups labelled for 'women' and funding targets and harassment have prevented any service defending women's rights. (other than Women's Aid).

Whatever the gvt do at this point, this is inevitably going to end up with rapidly increasing numbers of very, very pissed off women, and their partners, husbands, fathers and sons, public outrage about increasing prison incidents against women, increasing hospital and toilets and changing room incidents against women, more and more scandals, whopping compensation claims and safeguarding scandals and the press and everyone else pointing out the emperor being stark bollock naked in plain sight. It's already gaining speed. Corbyn's advisor saying in plain sight that biology exists is a big sign that more and more people are rebelling.

I have no sympathy for the govt either, it's their job to think things through and to listen to and represent the interests of all members of their constituency. Not just the ones with glittery bandwagons. They won't be able to say they weren't told. And told. And told.

papayasareyum

“changing their minds about? Who coined the term TWAW?”

Well when a major social change happens usually the public are against it and some in the establishment (politicians, media and institutions) resist it. But if the establishment start accepting it the public eventually follow. 1 year ago I had never heard the idea that a woman was anyone who believed they were. 5 years ago I doubt most politicians had ever heard this either. Many of the establishment have clearly bought into this idea and now resistance to the idea has emerged. I believe how this will go in the long term will depend upon how the establishment react to this resistance. If they listen and are still sure that a woman is anyone who identifies as such I believe society will eventually follow, if they change their minds and row back then I believe self ID will be buried and forgotten. I know some Tories and others resist self ID. But is anyone in the establishment who initially accepted it had second thoughts?

it's their job to think things through. I love a good joke

OP when I met my female, labour, MP face to face she did say of course she didn’t think TWAW, the thought of changing in front of Male bodied people also concerned her. I think the tide is turning but the problem is, even if TW are viewed in law as men, if they insist on using the ladies changing room, bathrooms etc (as many do, even without a GRC) there is very little we can do about it.

The Department for Women and Equalities announced this week that it was giving Stonewall a huge wodge of cash to train primary school teachers.

From that gesture, we can safely say that the Government fully supports the work that a pro-trans lobby group is doing, and wants to make sure that the work continues. It is deaf to any criticism of Stonewall.

What does that tell us about the direction of the debate on TWAW? It tells me that the Conservatives are digging their heels in and prepared to ride out the storm. No change of direction. Business as usual.

“What does that tell us about the direction of the debate on TWAW? It tells me that the Conservatives are digging their heels in and prepared to ride out the storm. No change of direction. Business as usual.”

Well it might be that the Conservative Party needs to replaced with a party of Peter Hitchens types. According to the journalist time pool 2nd wave feminists are becoming Party of the Conservative movement.

"Many of the establishment have clearly bought into this idea and now resistance to the idea has emerged. I believe how this will go in the long term will depend upon how the establishment react to this resistance."

I'm not sure they actually have bought into it.

IMO what has happened is that the TRAs have very cleverly insinuated themselves into grassroots politics. It's easily done, takes very few people as so few of us are active in politics. From here they spread the TWAW mantra, others don't want to disagree and be called nasty names so they go along. Uncontested TWAW are all the elected hear from their constituency bods. They give it no thought and parrot what they hear, assuming their people have done their homework. Which they haven't. They don't think about it, consider it a minor point affecting only TW, who they consider to be a vanishingly small number of people therefore SelfID is fine.

By not thinking about it they do not consider that it is so badly defined that it will be open to abuse by predators. When it is pointed out, they're still not giving it any headspace and pooh-pooh this as bigotry.

But - eventually, alternatives to TWAW will filter in. And they will have to give it headspace. Some will cling on to it, trying to save face as they think they can't afford to 'do a U-turn'. (I'm looking at you, Maria Miller.) Others with more integrity will start to use their eyes, and it will depend how diligent they are, how much time they can spend looking at it, and who's still dripping the mantra into their ear.

So yes, I agree with you OP that "how this will go in the long term will depend upon how the establishment react to this resistance." And I do believe that eventually, sense will prevail. But so, so much damage will have been wrought by then .

Interesting how women are the only group that has to fight to self-define.

Any other group, which of course necessarily all include men, it's considered very disrespectful to walk all over them like that.

I think that a lot of public figures jumped on the glitterwagon when it was all about identifying as a woman.

The narrative has been changed to 'TW are literally women and have always been women'. Not about identity. It is difficult to jump off the wagon because this is a subtle but important change and public figures are not in control of the narrative.

I think that there has been some minimal backtracking from politicians. But mostly we are hearing emboldened new voices saying WTF. Especially in the print media.

The press are waking up to the implications. Firstly the implications to society and secondly the implications for their freedom of speech.

I said last year that things would start to change when the daily mail picked this up. Their new editor is clearly aware of the issue and many of their pieces recently are Gc

A huge problem for the TRAs is that many of them are unlikely to elicit public sympathy - hence the need to have childrennpeaent as trans, for legitimacy. The batshit insanity of some of the players works against them, but they are minor players - the big question is who is really behind this?

Awareness is growing but I still think could go either way. It’s going to be highly unpleasant IMO.

Journalists must have been advised or told to report the crimes committed by trans such as Karen West, as crimes committed by women.
This is the shocking state of journalism today.

When the news is accompanied with images of men, bad men, this reveals the truth.
The general public are waking up to the lies that have been peddled.