When women are nasty to other women.....

[JennieLee]

I'm a feminist. (Which is why I'm here.) In my everyday life, the huge majority of my closest friendships have been with women. They're supportive, intelligent, funny. They are good at listening. They're tough and have survived a lot. They share experiences in a way that's helpful. Sometimes there are complications and differences but these are worked out without significant damage being done.

What I'm curious about is the shadow side. Why do we judge each other more harshly? Why does this sometimes turn to a kind of gleeful verbal online bullying - for the most apparently trivial reasons - that seems to me to constitute an act of aggression on people who may in their everyday lives be quite vulnerable.

I've had an experience of being bullied online recently. The sense of shame is not dissimilar to that of being sexually assaulted. Because there's a feeling of 'Was it my fault? Did I deserve in some way? Was I stupid to put myself in the situation. It was only me. It'll be safer not to talk about it.'

So any thoughts on the psychology of female bullies? Are they happy in they own lives? Do they truly believe they are right and that undermining other women is a good way of teaching them 'the rules'?

I dont think being a woman is a testament your character and women dont have to be nice to each other. I wont be nice if being nice allows harm, not ever. I try to be kind, I try really hard to think about power dynamics and never to punch down, but being nice and being effective are not the same thing. Not even remotely and women are human beings, not paragons of anything. I sometimes wont be nice cos am in a mood, or someone catches me the wrong way, or maybe I just dont like someone, maybe htey dont like me, and people are complex. The things that bind us dont get rid of what divides us and that is ok. Abusive behaviour doesnt become ok cos someone is a woman.

Men hit each other. Women shame each other.

It is what it is.

It's horrible to be bullied online. Sympathies, OP.

Women can be jerks too.

'Jerks' is not a word I would naturally associate with women.

'I've had an experience of being bullied online recently. The sense of shame is not dissimilar to that of being sexually assaulted. Because there's a feeling of 'Was it my fault? Did I deserve in some way? Was I stupid to put myself in the situation. It was only me. It'll be safer not to talk about it.'

I think one of the awful things about online bullying is the feeling it can e done openly to you. I think its very similar to sexual abuse feelings, and I think those behaving that way are always testing that, how far can I go in front of other people, and especially the seeking out distress so they can use it. I dont know what the answer is to that, ubt I hope you ok. Someone behaving that way is absolutely testing to see what their peers will allow them to do and trying to send a message to their victim. Its not ok.

What Langcleg said. Also nothing brings two people together more surely than their dislike of a third, and thus conflict is part of commaraderie? Condemnation allows us to define ourselves as part of the the honourable, brighter, worthier group 😢

Have been thinking today about Posie. Her GC critics seem to be employed women, whose jobs give them a lot of power and voice, for example. Where as Posie is a sahm. Her voice, to my mind, has risen precisely because she is “outrageous” or provocative. I think sometimes it’s easier to look at others who are very similar to us, and prey on small differences to shear up our own identity.

Sorry you’ve been flamer op. It can be brutal 😔

Friendly wave to Lisa. I think I may have seen and heard you on YouTube. If you're that person, I've got great respect for you

There's a thread running at the moment where a poster talks about her experience of rape and subsequent abortion - the reaction of some of the posters on there is absolutely disgusting.

I have never seen such hateful disregard for another person. The fact that these posters purport to be feminists make it all the more shocking.

I think one of the awful things about online bullying is the feeling it can be done openly to you.

Yes. This.

Abusive dynamics rely on the person doing it having power to make their actions remain unspoken, even when they harm soemone, and they are about exerting power that way. The power to have your friends round on someone you harmed, the power to have someone you harmed fired, or not believed. its really standard and its the second someones behaviour undermines the image they protect the demonstration you then get is who will overlook it and that is not nice. Not at all.

Its why stating the behaviour openly and exposing that power dynamic is always necessary, but you really have to learn to accept what you find out from doing that cos its often unpleasant.

Ive got no useful comments jenni both dd and i have been lucky enough to not be bullied

Probably because i only really do mumsnet and dd probably wouldn't notice

But a friend of mine lost a close friendship group and although they weren't overtly mean to her the act of deserting and ignoring her was definitely bullying in my opinion

Sorry this has happened to you

Sorry

I meant to say that this is an interesting thread and im going to lurk

I think bullying is seen as happening to young people and it can obviously happen at any age

No, I'm quite old.

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that there are factors 'bully-able'. I was physically abused as a child. My father had an uncertain, violent temper. My mother enabled him to act as he did. They also both had a strong sense of what proper behaviour was, but didn't communicate this with me. So a strong memory of my childhood is being repeatedly punished for doing things I didn't know were wrong. Sometimes I'd ask what I'd done and they'd just say, 'You know perfectly well what you've done.'

So I think there's a vulnerable core where I'm often worried that I have to behave perfectly. Otherwise people can turn on me an that small errors/misjudgements will cause people to become extremely angry. So in face to face - eg work situations - I think people can smell that.

At the same time I also appear bright and articulate. I ask questions. I don't accept things I don't believe to be true and injustice makes me feel an obligation to speak out. I'm an individual rather than somebody who's always one of the pack. And I think people can feel that threatening and need to assert themselves - as part of the pack - through dominating/undermining behaviour.

There is no obligation to be nicer to ones own sex. And men are also proliferate physiological bullies. I just don’t see the issue here.

I think the pack mentality is key to bullying and the way ew form hierarchies. We all do stuff that causes harm, the thing that marks out those who are abusive and those who are not, to my mind, is how they respond to that harm. Most of us reflect and maybe apologise or think, but the abusive dont, they escalate, demand their victim be seen as aggressor and the second the aggressors behaviour becomes apparent it becomes their identity and group vs their victim. Its kind of tedious, and I think the second you start placing someone above that, above question, you are more or less saying you know they wil do that and committing to holding that up for them. I dont hink women are immune from this, and i think the perception women should be nice is more often than not used y those who mean they want women to not answer back but women do this, and they support men who do it.

I think as the sex that has less biological/social/economic power it is often particularly useful - indeed essential to our survival - if we can support each other.

Arguably energy that could be better used dismantling the patriarchy is spent on saying things like, 'Oh she's such a slag' and 'Have you seen the state of her bathroom'.

Though these are minor things.

It's the banding together to decide that the state of somebody's home /their consensual sexual behaviour/their opinions on just about anything means they must be collectively shunned and shamed which is problematic.

And I think it's an interesting one for Mumsnet. The more'bullying' parts of the site are probably extremely active - which will attract advertisers/money. So, as with any commercial website, there is only the most limited commitment to policing any behaviour which helps to generate income/profit.

FWIW the need to have your actual behaviour be unspoken, the need to have your supporters uphold your right to that, they are generally about shame and them knowing that behaviour is wrong. As much in an abusive reflex is demonstration that abusive behaviour is outside the norm, as it is attempting to get away with it. Not much help if you are in the middle of it.

Im reminded of a scene in RHOBH when a newer cast member announced she had got her own show and was net with stony silence. Not one of them congratulated her. That scene really stayed with me.

I think maybe we (wrongly) expect women to be nicer and are flummoxed when others react or behave in a way that doesnt fit with our own expectations.

Don't forget that on a forum, not everyone here is who they say they are. Dont treat it with the same level of trust as you would face to face interactions.

I think that all people need to study themselves, learn to recognise their own emotions, and learn about human behaviour and interactions.

We need to learn to break free from needing the approval of the group. It drives so many harmful behaviours.
Bullying is a minor act of sadism. The grim satisfaction people get from bullying is pleasure from power over another, and acceptance by the group.

kill the bitches with love.

Nice. In a thread about why women are nasty to other women. Calling other women "bitches" is a prime example of said nastiness.

I have autism and do not like being touched unless I am related or romantically involved with the person touching me. If anyone gave me "the biggest hug" I would file a harassment and disability discrimination report with HR.

Being a woman does not automatically make you a nice person.

''My way around it has been to kill the bitches with love. They know I'm a hugger, they now know if they are grumpy, mean, belittling.,....I'm going to ask them what's wrong? I'm gonna tell them, 'come on this isn't like you, what's going on?'
I've noticed it makes them uncomfortable....what makes them even more uncomfortable is when I say, 'I'm coming into that office to give you the biggest hug' and I do it.''

Do you know you are describing some fairly toxic stuff there and you might end up sacked or somehting for persistently seeking to override peoples ersonal physical boundaries. COs thats not alright especially if you are doing it because you dont like them.

'If I dont like someone I try to make sure they know they are not allowed boundaries and touch them when I dont want them to' doesnt sound quite so good as 'kill them with love'.

Something that also happens is an expectation that women will be “nice”. Women may not have experienced other women being forthright and assertive and opinionated and read it as aggression or bullying. I think that happens a lot on FWR. We’re so used to circumlocution and pussy footing that directness comes as a shock. But also-some women are horrible.