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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What drives this contempt for women?

76 replies

GenderIsAPrison · 01/02/2019 22:02

I’m thinking of the Warwick rape threat case, recent case in Edinburgh where a male student was convicted of sexual assault. And the general incel, TRAs culture.

How did we get to this place where so many young men have such little regard, respect and empathy for women? Treat them with such utter contempt and hatred. Regard themselves with such narcissistic sexual entitlement.

Is it a highly sexualised media? Feminism backlash?
Porn? Internet? What drives this hate? I don’t believe it’s always been this bad.

Btw. Not saying AMALT.

OP posts:
DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/02/2019 20:14

Porn has always been a driver of innovation on the internet, because pornographers were the first to consistently monetize the internet. So to a large extent, the internet we have today was shaped by porn - we tended to get the technology which was of benefit to the sex industry (web cams, for example).

And I think the person up-thread (I’m doing this on my phone, so I’m sorry to not name and quote you properly), who said we’re like monkeys with machine guns was right. We’re clever monkeys, but our brains are highly evolved to live well a few thousand years ago.

We’ve lost social controls - we no longer live in extended families or a known social context. Which wasn’t an unmixed blessing, but shame is a powerful corrective to behaviour when you think people are looking over your shoulder. We move around so much, we’re rarely embedded in communities which can support us and watch us.

And the other up-thread person who commented about young boys (and, I’d argue, young girls), beefing to be outside doing things, not inside with screens.

There’s lots of interesting research about the benefit of nature for our physical and sociological wellbeing. It’s why rich schools have things like wilderness campuses - it’s goid for kids.

Being outside, doing strenuous, slightly dangerous stuff is the adrenaline rush we used to have before porn was so widely available. I’m not necessarily in favour of military service, but I wonder if some form of rigorous compulsory national service (with emergency services for example), might work.

I saw and have never found again, a brilliant piece by a comedian talking about how the world is structured around youth. We’re all about being young and having fun - it’s advertising, it’s movies, it’s books.

There’s no longer an adult culture for young people to aspire to enter, no rites of passage where you get greater responsibility but also more privileges (which is what man-and womanhood rituals offer in traditional societies).

You can go from 12 to your forties on pretty much the same gradient, unless you’re forced to grow-up through external events.

Youth unemployment is an important factor as well, I think. Work isn’t just about earning money, it’s where young people are socialised into adult society. It’s about learning to show up and get on with it, getting on with people, navigating stressful events, developing a work ethic. generational unemployment has a devastating impact on families and wider society.

Misogyny isn’t, of course, anything new, but we’ve decoupled people from social control, constructed a culture which allows euphoria without responsibility and chucked young people into this free-for-all without seat belts.

So girls are hurting themselves and boys are hurting girls and men seem to throw up their hands (or, given the prevalence of porn, their hands are otherwise occupied), and women are trying desperately to pick up the pieces.

IfNotNowThenWhy · 02/02/2019 20:43

So girls are hurting themselves and boys are hurting girls and men seem to throw up their hands (or, given the prevalence of porn, their hands are otherwise occupied), and women are trrying desperately to pick up the pieces.

Yeah, this. Exactly this. But it's hurting boys too.
The older ds gets the more utterly disgusted I am with men's attitude to all of this, which is basically to do nothing and take no responsibility at all for any of it. Even though porn exists because of them.
I had a conversation with the father of a child after ds saw porn at his house (on his friends phone). They had seen it via wifi and I pointed out that you can get porn blocked by your service provider. The guy was all "oh, yeah, right, I'll look into that".
Ffs protect your kids! I think I could get on board with national service if it's training and not actually being sent to fight.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/02/2019 20:58

I found this article chilling. It’s clear that if boys and young men are not helped to find healthy tribes, they’ll find unhealthy ones.

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-02/internet-trolls-arent-who-i-thought-ginger-gorman-troll-hunting/10767690?pfmredir=sm

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 21:06

Well, I don't think blaming all the ills of the world on men is working either.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/02/2019 21:30

Well, I don't think blaming all the ills of the world on men is working either.

It’s good to get NAMALT out of the way.

Men control the porn industry. They control the sex industry. They control most governments (hello Rwanda the shining exception). The majority of senior academics are male. Men are the major consumers of porn and the sex industry. Men control most large corporations, including the advertising and fashion industries. Men commit the vast majority of murders. rapes, and acts of aggression against women, children and other men.

Who is better placed to fix the mess they’ve created, than men?

Are there men’s forums where the men are seriously discussing the impact porn is having on an entire generation?

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 22:03

There are men's forums where they discuss the impact of porn, search nofap. As you are no doubt aware there are many women who work in the porn industry and advocate for it, it's not as black and white as you would have it.

Women have more political power than they have ever had, and yet your contention is that only men are responsible for anything. Do you personally feel responsible for FGM and do you expect every women you meet to be trying to stop it ?

Helmetbymidnight · 02/02/2019 22:09

Some small boys are little misogynists.
(I feel/hope they are pre-porn.) Their attitudes are presumably being handed down to them in their families.

DangermousesSidekick · 02/02/2019 22:28

Not just in their families. Misogyny is everywhere and these kids are wallowing in the internet. They pick up the messages that they never get a break from.

Elon, are you suggesting there that women alone are responsible for FGM? DancelikeEmma was saying that men as a class control porn and have power there. Your immediate response is to whine that not all men have responsibility for it, which I do get after a fashion, and women should do more. Women may have more power than ever before, but as Emma demonstrates, 'ever before' really does not add up to much. Things are going backwards before our eyes.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 22:48

The thing is you on the one hand cite leadership of countries or political parties as manifestations of power, except when women are in charge.

No I don't think women alone are responsible for FGM but I don't think men alone are responsible for the beauty standards young girls torture themselves trying to achieve.

DangermousesSidekick · 02/02/2019 22:52

The thing is, women are very rarely in charge.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 22:55

I think part of the problem is that if you count all of the things men as a class are responsible for, as soon as it is anything good, then everyone is keen to find out if a woman was involved in anyway, or keen to say they would have been were it not for misogyny. It becomes very easy to say,.well yeah but look at all the other stuff men have done and what have women done, and why do you think that is? This is exactly what is spouted by the other side, it's all their fault, its inherent almost.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 22:56

Well if you think women have no real power or influence in this country then I don't know what to say to you.

7Days · 02/02/2019 22:58

If you dont know what to say, say nothing at all -
It's probably for the best, Elon.

DangermousesSidekick · 02/02/2019 23:04

It sounds rather like you want to deny the fact that women have been denied acknowledgement of and reward for their influence and abilities in the past and the present unless you can blame women for all of men's sexual fetishes and violence.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 23:04

And on that rather churlish dismissal of women's efforts and achievements I'll bid you good evening 7Days.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 23:08

unless you can blame women for all of men's sexual fetishes and violence.

Oh yeah sure, thats exactly what I was saying. Hmm I'll leave you to your simplistic black/white thinking.

ElonMask · 02/02/2019 23:11

denied acknowledgement of and reward for their influence and abilities in the past and the present

You mean like what you're doing ? saying they achieve the square root of fuck all and society's actually gone down the shitter for women since women got more of a say in running it, because women are actually powerless. Great.

DangermousesSidekick · 02/02/2019 23:21

I could accuse you of simplicity as well. Women's efforts are generally devalued compared to men's. Having more women visible in a few key positions is a start, but having equal numbers of men and women involved in all walks of life from parenting to prime minister-ing and law-lord-ing would be far more effective. Class is another factor to take into account.

Ifonlyus · 03/02/2019 13:17

I struggle with how I feel the world is now for my dds who are teenagers. I felt like it was better in the 80s early 90s but looking back, I was just naive. I really thought that rape was an act of violence carried out by a stranger, that class and intelligence protected women against DA and being involved with shitty men. I could say the more open shitty men are about their fantasies and opinions on women, the more females are forewarned. However, I think what has changed over the past few decades, which was starting to disappear in the 80s, is that sexual stereotypes have become more ingrained and women are being duped into 'accepting' their own oppression. The Internet allows men to control the public dialogue and its more difficult for women, young women especially, to call out sexism and socially mould young men's behaviour without the risk of isolating themselves.

There's an article about group chats somewhere - GC I think - and it talks about 'performative masculinity' That's what needs to change - for the sake of women and girls and boys and men.

MsVanillaRoseAuntof7 · 03/02/2019 17:57

What drives the massive hatred of trans people that is to be found on this board? Look into your souls, maybe you will find the answer to why some people hate other people just for being themselves. (Obviously, it's okay to hate serial killers or people who kick puppies.)

Helmetbymidnight · 03/02/2019 18:05

What annoys you so much about women discussing misogyny?

GenderIsAPrison · 03/02/2019 21:29

There is no hatred of trans people on this board.

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littlbrowndog · 03/02/2019 21:34

I thought Elon had gone 😂😂😂

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2019 21:34

Oh heck Mrs vanilla pops up now now 😂😂😎

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2019 21:35

Looking for my soul 😟😟