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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So much for 'good guy' allies

63 replies

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 01:07

Am blocked by Jonathon Best for leaving a mild criticism of his choice to retweet Harrop, in the stampede to condemn the direct action of JL and PP.

I have no opinion on the action, having not seen the video yet myself.

But I do strongly object to male allies retweeting woman haters in an attempt to manage their own reputations.

Neither tweet was abusive; the emotion expressed was disappointment.

So that's what our male allies think of us. Disagree, even politely, and you're out.

Don't rely on male 'allies'. Their support is conditional on never being challenged.

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ToeToToe · 01/02/2019 01:34

Oh well. I've just put this on another. might as well put it here too.

I don't condemn posie & julia one little bit.

spectator.us/terfs-take-america/?fbclid=IwAR0JTRWmb4GBSC8xtptIvlkb8ac9O8XehblIKOAEQpH0vj1Gxl_o8rFeah0

This is a great article, that also doesn't condemn posie and julia.

If you watch the video closely, you can see the very obvious "duper's delight" smile on the face of Sarah McBride. Sarah McBride was trying to pass legislation that will undermine or even destroys the right of women and girls.

Sarah McBride wasn't upset, or intimidated, or scared.

Sarah McBride smiled

ToeToToe · 01/02/2019 01:38

I realise this may not have been the point of your thread OP, so yes, I agree with your OP all the way.

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 01:49

I don't always agree with Posie.

I don't know if this action was a net positive or negative.

I don't characterise it as 'violence', and as I don't have a reputation to manage, I'm not in a rush to call it out as such.

I do appreciate that PP and JL gave ROGD mums in the US a platform. Shame on the left and centre for not supporting it.

This was just a good reminder to me that just because men talk the talk, doesn't mean they walk the walk.

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Coyoacan · 01/02/2019 01:49

Does anyone understand the reactions of Dr. Stock and Rosa Freedman to that video? I'm always admired them but I cannot for the life of me understand why they thought the actions in that video were so wrong and "violent".

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 01:49

Thanks for the article, btw.

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ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 01:53

Coyoacan - no.

I understand other objections to PP, but I did not consider that action - now I've seen it - remotely 'violent'.

However, I don't think the abuse Rosa received as a result of disagreeing is acceptable either.

Idk. It's all very depressing. I do think many feminists (not referring to KS or RF here) pay only lip service to the reality of mothers and mothering, and issues of mothering, and really see no urgency to promote and give voice to the mothers dealing with ROGD.

But that's a broader problem with feminism - beyond reproductive health and child care, as a movement it has struggled to deal with the concerns of mothers.

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ToeToToe · 01/02/2019 02:02

Coyacoan - No I don't.

I was most surprised. Posie is a self-styled, provocative activist, and Julia has never shied away from direct action.

It reminded me of the sort of stuff the Suffragettes would have done - they weren't there to be 'nice' or popular - they were there to agitate.

Bluestitch · 01/02/2019 02:24

That's a shame he blocked you. Speaking of male allies though, Joe McGann is retweeting Glinner and other GC accounts as well as sharing the Stonewall petition.

QuietContraryMary · 01/02/2019 02:40

it wasn't really direct action, they walked past a meeting room in a government building and had a go at a lobbyist. I bet if they had been lobbyists for Monsanto or whatever and some passing person had had a rant about GM crops everyone would have been applauding their stunning bravery.

All this bollocks gaslighting about people being made to feel 'unsafe' when they actually mean 'made to feel slightly awkward' or 'challenged about the controversial position they hold' has to stop.

It's bollocks.

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 02:42

Well, let's hope not all male allies are so think skinned.

An inability to accept disagreement from women is generally not the sign of a pro woman man.

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ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 02:43

thin

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ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 02:54

How was it different to the women who confronted (with questions) that US politician in the lift when the Kavanaugh hearing were on ?

Genuine question. What is the violence people are seeing ? Is there a bit of the video I haven't seen where they hit or otherwise abused the lobbyist ?

And why would anyone retweet Harrop to distance themselves from it ?

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OrchidInTheSun · 01/02/2019 03:35

It was because they mis-gendered McBride. The worst thing women can do is to refuse to pander to men's delusions. And yes, I saw a smile.

AnotherBewilderedQuoll · 01/02/2019 03:40

Yep, what QuietContraryMary said. No one felt or was "unsafe" just because two adult human females spoke in a direct manner to an experienced political lobbyist. Julia and Posie did nothing wrong.
Oh but women, we must BE NICE! to those making a career out of removing our protections and rights.

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 03:56

Seriously ? This was considered violent because of pronouns ?

So JB is posting Harrop to distance himself from prounouns ?

What a fucking joke.

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ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 03:57

Honestly, for all the disavowal of violence I've seen today, I though Posie must have whacked someone over the head.

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Fallingirl · 01/02/2019 04:24

All the hyperbolic shit hurled at Posie this week, illustrates with painful clarity the hypocritical, and quote frankly insane, standards women are held to.

You’d think she was the one posing for pictures holding bat, or like Contentious said, had actually hit someone, the way we are expected to ‘distance’ ourselves from her (and Julia et al.)

The hypocrisy is especially galling when the so-called left get their knickers in a twist. They are the main guilty parties behind trying to stopwomen from meeting and speaking.

And when defending their glorious leader, they demonstrate that they understand the concept of speaking with people you don’t usually agree with perfectly well. If speaking with known terrorists is wise and strategically legit, why would it be tantamount to doing deals with the devil himself, to have civil conversations about shared issues with rightwing women?

Misogyny. That is the only answer to that.

loverofvideogames · 01/02/2019 04:26

I just had a look at this and am absolutely disgusted by it. Harrop is no friend to women OR trans people, he's an antagonist and an abusive pr!@k. This Jonathan person is no friend to women.

OrchidInTheSun · 01/02/2019 04:31

Well I'm assuming so because she didn't shout or swear or abuse McBride. But she did refer to them as a man.

OrchidInTheSun · 01/02/2019 04:31

And retweeting Harrop is beyond the pale.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 01/02/2019 04:56

I don’t think TRAs are really the main problem for women. They are the shock troops for a bigger agenda, which is privileged men seeing an opportunity to roll back the progress women have made.

I suppose any system which is long-lived, systemic and powerful has a kind of sentience (and someone posted a really brilliant piece on FWR last year around that idea - but I’ve lost the link).

So the patriarchy is using transactivism as the thin edge of the wedge to pry away those political structures which benefit women.

I know that sounds apocalyptic, but in a world where 123 million women are missing, where FGM exists, where trafficking of women and children is increasing, where women are killed every day by intimate partners and family, it’s hard not to see the patriarchy fighting back.

I’m a bit unsettled by some feminists distancing themselves from what was really, at worst, rude behaviour, but female socialisation is hard to resist and they have careers and reputations to protect.

The fact that intruding on a meeting has been reported with a level of horror which might be commensurate with an act of dangerous aggression, reveals much of the deep-seated dislike that many, many men, have for women.

The outrage created by women prepared to be uncivil in pursuit of justice, would be funny if it wasn’t about complete disdain.

I’m quite sure that similar behaviour happens every day with male lobbyists jockeying for advantage. In fact I’m sure that lobbyists do much worse than enter meetings uninvited - but the millions of dollars handed to politicians by big tobacco or big oil or health funds, garners less outrage than two, angry women.

ContentiousOne · 01/02/2019 05:30

DancelikeEmmaGoldman I think you're right.

After thinking on it today, I also think most male allies have a lot more work to do to divorce themselves from patriarchy.

As always, it's most instructive when you say 'no' to a man.

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loverofvideogames · 01/02/2019 05:32

I am bewildered by the hatred being thrown at Posie et al, I just don't get it. We should be allowed to share our concerns about trans ideology even if those concerns don't all align, all the time. Especially disgusting coming from women who have been happy to sit on the sidelines, 'playing along' to all of a sudden express deep empathy for a community that would happily see women's rights completely eroded.

There was absolutely nothing violent about what PP and JL did in that office. What options have women been given on this issue when we are consistently no platformed, blocked, muted etc? And if I recall, the suffragettes employed way worse tactics to get their message heard.. arson, suicide, hunger strikes.

Besides, I'm sure the poor sod has recovered just from the 'battering' of words...

loverofvideogames · 01/02/2019 05:36

*recovered just fine - meant to say

CarolDanvers · 01/02/2019 05:51

I bet if they had been lobbyists for Monsanto or whatever and some passing person had had a rant about GM crops everyone would have been applauding their stunning bravery

This.

Talking about women’s issues though = spiteful, nasty and aggressive. I am sick to the back teeth of the exacting standards women are held to when it comes to discussing issues that primarily if not solely affect them and their children.

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