Where is the threat of fascism in the UK?

[lisamuggeridge]

So I always stand up to the far right. Every time I respond the same. I am never in the UK doing this to tackle a national threat of fascism, I am doing this because the far right in the UK are a local threat, violent men, and that is what I fear being enabled. With CSE it was managing that threat and the threat those men posed t ogirls adding to what was already compounded by everyone elses failure. I am not worried that Yaxley Lennon will attack to a politrical force that takes Downing Street I am worried about the violent thugs that are enabled.

But we do have a anti-semitism in te mainstream, we do have attacs on jewish people, we had holocaust denial on afternoon television during party conference season, we have a tiny posh boy culture who used austerity which rolled equality back to generate a power base where women would be intimidated and abused for discussing it and eventually would be abused for saying they were a woman. We have a political identity in the UK which will not even allow people to dicuss being harmed by the state until it is with respect to their left wing identity, which is a nonsense.

EDL are largely a reflection of elite media left dysfunction and entirely generated by elite left attention and cannot mobilise because they reected consistently at ground level. Only the elite left give them oxygen. Far right in this country are nothing more than the trim on the skirt of the real threat of fascism.

I find the latest episode fascinating. It is no secret I avoid tribalism and always stand up to the far right but the idea that the far right in the UK are where the threat of fascism comes from is lauhable.
In the UK the left are Trumps mirror, and use the same sructures, techniques and even rhetoric.

Can someone explain why right wing women are the threat of fascism in the UK? Cos it appears to require obliterating the entirety of the big picture.

Britain has never elected a fascist government and likely never will. People are confusing populism with fascism these days. The movements that are arising across Europe and to a lesser extent Trump in the USA is populism, not fascism.

No I agree the UK will never vote for a fascist govt and I think this crisis, the major clusterfuck we are in politically is entirely because we did something we cant do in this country and the rule of law was undermined. I find it staggering that people are demanding women be ostracised as fascists when a political party are behaving the wya the Labour Party are, and I note that the UK electorate dont fall for it. Even if twitter does. I think use of term populism implies this something it isnt and the term populism is used by mainstream parties for their actions. Which the populace are more or less excluded from at present.

The tactics being used are totalitarian on both left and right. People are scared to speak out on many issues and attacked when they do.

What if both left and right are being directed by the same group and working towards the same goal? There is no active labour movement at the moment, I cant remember anything like it in my lifetime.

The poster who made the ludicrous comment on the other thread about no-one being Jewish must have missed the absurd situation we have in UK Labour.

In a couple of years Labour has gone from a party which was had a long traditional connection to Jewish intellectuals and was prior to Corbyn led by a Jewish man to a party which is losing Jewish votes in droves.

No one is Jewish? Where did this idea come from?

No one is Jewish? Where did this idea come from?

It was an idiotic comment that none of the aplogists [sic ]who were defending the alt-right [sic ] were Jewish or black.

In a couple of years Labour has gone from a party which was had a long traditional connection to Jewish intellectuals

I find it poignant that socialism on a global scale, particularly when it veers hard towards anti-capitalism, tends to cultivate antisemitism.

losing Jewish votes in droves

Assuming the perceived antisemitism is deliberate (I'm still on the fence), it would be interesting to know if it's a calculated risk, based on there being barely more than a quarter of a million Jews in the UK.

There's very little discussion on policy. The threat comes from policy (and from street thugs, but that's more localised)
There's an absolute disconnect between a party's published manifesto and what it will do given half the chance. Lib Dems are the perfect example of that. Nobody is held accountable for it generally. We've lost the expectation that they will do what they say they will.
News and even the "in-depth" press and TV fails to cover policy. It's more like a soap opera with unlikeable characters. Is this what we want to read and watch, really?
Austerity policies weren't discussed much. The effects maybe. A line from magical grandad, maybe (love that moniker). But an actual discussion: will this work, has this worked, what are the outcomes? Not so much.
Bedroom tax. Is it right that someone whose kids have left home lives in a social housing three bedroom house when they could easily live in a flat? No, seems unfair. So they charge extra for the rooms. But that person has no money to pay. And there aren't any one bed flats anyway. So it's a terrible policy, which has had no effect on housing waiting lists, but causes misery.
But you really have to dig to find this out. The BBC nine o'clock news have led with this. "We investigated the policy and found that there was no benefit and it would never have worked". Not Corbyn said this, May said that, this person said this. The. Actual. Policy.
Instead we get Kuenssberg as a celebrity and lots of conjecture about posturing for power. What Boris had for breakfast. Can we really trust a woman who runs through wheat etc.
There's no actual information. Frankly the government could have anything planned, we're approaching American levels of misinformation and personality politics. We'd never know.

Remember when Brenner, Bird and Fortune would do a sketch where they'd take apart a policy or a scandal in their comedy show? That stuff was more intellectual than Newsnight is now. How can we vote for policy if policy is secret and it's just this reality TV show in pinstripe?

The most actual information you can get from one publication is in Private Eye.

That's fascism to me. When the populace are so far removed from the elite, when we lose all hope of being treated fairly, or being listened to, of being informed, that's fascism. Totalitarianism anyway.
We are being told men are now women. We can't argue against it because we run the risk of losing our jobs. That's the real threat to freedom, right there. We aren't allowed to talk. And if it does ever come up, they'll find some person to paint as evil, like a bad guy in scripted wrestling entertainment.

What’s their excuse for pissing off women? How many female voters are there in the U.K.?

Assuming the perceived antisemitism is deliberate
It's not perceived, it's real. Hence deliberate.
If Israel was wiped off the face of the earth tomorrow that anti-semitism would still be there, too.

What’s their excuse for pissing off women?

I'm assuming, based on context, that you were replying to me (apologies if you weren't). I'm not a member of the Labour leadership so I can't comment but they may well not see women as a single voting block who are all identical in their beliefs.

Translating "I, an [X] am offended by the actions of [Y]" into "The actions of [Y] offends all who are [X]" is liable to lead to disappointment when every member of [X] doesn't agree with you. Personally, I find it rather disrespectful to any demographic as a whole to treat them as a single minded voting bloc (I'm not accusing you of being deliberately disrespectful).

It's not perceived, it's real. Hence deliberate.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Indeed and never evaluate harm by the intention behind, when blind stupidity and blind reproduction of identity at the cost of all else is usually to blame. Impact is the same. Marginalised groups harmed by policy, hateful media narratives which can pnly cope with demonisation and an entire policy making and politics culture who cant see beyond the circles they are trapped in.

The differnce between an abusive reflex and one that is not is what happened when challenge occurred. The left were given political power in preventing challenge to those policies. For those concerned about the impact of right wing lobbying groups, thats why they became necessary and touched this issue.
At the core of it is abusive policy and a lack of concern for the rule of law.

Maybe fascism isnt an ideology but structures can end up reproducing it without intent but at some point harm is not measured by intent and intent becomes irrelevant. I can see the patterns of the 1940s repeated in current structures, I can see just from the tribalism online that tere is no intent. Does it mean the danger isnt there? No.

I can see the patterns of the 1940s repeated in current structures

The 40s?

A stable democracy not meeting the rule of law will experience instability that opens the doors to fringe political forces. Always.

Lisa, you said this on your blog the other day. It's how I see it. Including fascism.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I think that's an optimistic view of antisemitism in the UK

Flyingoink. I think with the left and anti-semitism a chunk of it is about them needing a mystery elite so they dont reflect on ho wposh they are. I dont think that changes the impact, and nor do I think it adequately explains the whole phenomena but I think is some of it. Hayek is worth a read on this I reckon.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I think that's an optimistic view of antisemitism in the UK

I think it's also very simplistic and doesn't take into account that in a large group, different people will have different motivations. Some will, undoubtedly, be utterly clueless as to the antisemitic flavour of bringing up the suffering of the Palestinians when a Jewish person complains about antisemitism. They see themselves as right on lefties who care about the oppressed and don't think much further than a tweet thread of six tweets.

But there certainly are a significant amount of people who have a very deliberate intention behind what they post, and still others who are tribal and personally ambitious and like to stir shit Owen Jones.

The overt tribalism, the thought police approach - look through any social media you like and that kind of precursor to fascism is every bit as evident on the Left as the Right.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I think that's an optimistic view of antisemitism in the UK

I think it's also very simplistic and doesn't take into account that in a large group, different people will have different motivations. Some will, undoubtedly, be utterly clueless as to the antisemitic flavour of bringing up the suffering of the Palestinians when a Jewish person complains about antisemitism. They see themselves as right on lefties who care about the oppressed and don't think much further than a tweet thread of six tweets.

But there certainly are a significant amount of people who have a very deliberate intention behind what they post, and still others who are tribal and personally ambitious and like to stir shit Owen Jones.

The overt tribalism, the thought police approach - look through any social media you like and that kind of precursor to fascism is every bit as evident on the Left as the Right.

Agreed. It scares me cos we can see it in real time through social meida but also am quite liking that much of the dysfunction on display through social media used to be hidden behind actual media walls. Seems to me if we can see it, articulate it, describe it, then all is not lost. Maybe that is also optimism. In fact...am going to stick to ice cream..

Some of it is the "Jewish elite" argument (pretty antisemitic), some of it the "naughty Israel" argument, and some of it is pure hatred.
There are white people who hate Jews on the left. There are Muslims who hate Jews on the left. There are European immigrants who hate Jews on the left. These groups combined are much more of a voter bloc than you'd think and giving them legitimacy is dangerous and stupid. Like I said, if Israel was wiped off the map tomorrow these people would still hate Jews.
How many London voters picked Khan over a Jew? Not for his policies, not even because he was Asian, but because the alternative was a Jewish man? Dare we even ask?

I think not all racist/antisemitic and fascists and vice versa IMO.

Trump is a vile piece of shit, but his politics aren't actually facist, which is more a politics of central control, whereas his is more laissez faire and 'small government' (aka, let the people fend for themselves).

As a Jew, I don't feel any particular threat from either side's antisemitism, though this is maybe easy as I don't have a Jewish name and there's no way to tell I'm Jewish unless you know, so I've seldom experienced any. I guess an Orthodox Jew in Stamford Hill might feel different, though.

But I do get annoyed at my co-religionists clutching their pearls that 'This is like Germany before the Nazis!!!' because no one is interested in slapping yellow stars on our arms. The far right doesn't have the broad support, neither do antisemites on the left and the Holocaust didn't happen because Hitler and co were feeble at combating antisemitism in their party. It was part of the reason for their party.

I think Muslim people sadly have more to worry about their rights and security than we do, as they are the scapegoats of populism today.

I’m probably not going to express this well (I’m a scientist, not a sociologist or political/historical expert!)

I think theres a contradiction. On the one hand the British are in no danger of going the traditional fascist route of a Big Man - we rejected that before and we will reject it again. I think that a very important bit of the British psyche is taking the piss out of stuff, and not liking dictators as a style of government.

But then we seem to be sleepwalking Into fascism by stealth in three main ways.

1. Corporate power - companies over people. Money being all - tax credits for example, creating a system where private enterprise can pay shit wages and be subbed by the taxpayer. That’s dehumanising and it creates a backdrop of insecurity, where us and them can breed and where people are feeling precarious

1. Totalitarianism by stealth. Social media pile ons. The trans stuff shows it perfectly - only total capitulation is accepted. This is not how the British do things. We are, in general, a fairly tolerant, mongrel nation who have absorbed waves of immigrants (with imperfect success, we aren’t perfect) and who accept a variety of views. As Elizabeth I said - no need to open windows into men’s souls.

So we are gradually falling into this awful no debate stuff, where if you put a step wrong you’re crucified on social media AND that can have real world implications.

1. I’ve actually forgotten (sigh, I’m tired) but basically 1 and 2 are combining to create a really worrying climate where the stuff we have traditionally relied on to stop extremism is being taken down - our comedy, our outspokenness, our media... it all seems to be turning rather po faced and puritanical.

Sorry that was rambling. I mean to say that fascism isn’t all big men in jackboots, it can be social media pile ons and chucking women off twitter for calling a spade a spade. We need to be careful - society is going on a bad direction

The resurgence in anti-semitism shocked thelife out of me. My mother in law used to say she was proud she had never encountered anti-semitism in the UK, and to see how quickly the oldest hatred takes hold is extraordinary. THat we actually have the situation we have is extraordinary.

create a really worrying climate where the stuff we have traditionally relied on to stop extremism is being taken down - our comedy, our outspokenness, our media... it all seems to be turning rather po faced and puritanical.

Tbf, this isn't without precedent. Cromwell managed to come to power on a platform that was pretty humourless and while it initially relied on British rebellious bloody mindedness, eventually that bloody-mindedness got exceedingly pissed off with po faced puritans to the degree that the word 'puritanical' has entered the language as a totally negative word.

But obviously, I don't really want to wait a few centuries for this particular phase to pass into history.

Social media has certainly added a problem. I think its also revealed social norms that were shapong our culture but the level of authoritarianism on show in this country when we dont have the legal structures to back it up is astonishinga nd the ease with which our govt(left and right if that means owt) have systematically undermined the rule of law is also astonishing. I thin thats partly why the redefining political spectrum evident through self id is important. We have to show we can do that when all evidence suggests those in charge cannot at present.

ReL Cromwell, Devils Whore was on C4 and reminded me of that. I hadnt even examined that period as relevant but it so is.