It never happens: Woman attacked in public toilet in UK dies :(

[Mumfun]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-47008903

Not many details. But I am always wary of public toilets due to a number of experiences over the years of finding men in them when they should not have been

Why the hell is her death being treated as “unexplained”
Isn’t it clear what happened?!

It was a man who the woman knew so doesn't sound like a random attack. Which I know doesn't make it less horrific and doesn't alter the outcome for her but I do wonder if it hadn't happened in the toilets whether it would have happened elsewhere. It doesn't sound like it was a stranger loitering in the toilets waiting to pounce on the first woman who came along.

MyBread the death is still being investigated. Thats why.

Yes, but the toilets used to be a safe place to escape to.

I don't think this person was pretending to be a woman and hanging out in the toilets. It sounds like he followed her into there. Female toilets have never been safe from someone in that respect. He's a murdering bastard (though sounds like there may be mental health issues) and I guess the sort of person who is going to batter someone to death isn't going to be put off by being in the wrong toilets. I think the location is a red herring here.

No it isn't a red herring.
The second you see a man in a women only space you already know he is not there with good intentions.

It says that he was known to the woman, which is the case with the vast vast majority of violent crimes against women. It's very rarely a stranger. It has very little to do with toilets- it's just that this was where he happened to kill her.
And unexplained is, as a PP said, because it is being investigated.

The second you see a man in a women only space you already know he is not there with good intentions.

And I completely understand that but in this case it wouldn't have made a difference. There can't have been anyone else in the toilets because otherwise I'm sure someone would have raised the alarm when he was attacking her.

It is relevant because it removes the presumption that a man shouldn’t be there.

Consider two situations.

1. Woman comes into toilet, man follows. Men outside confront the man and tell him he’s in the wrong place. Man continues aggressively into women’s. Men outside and possibly women inside alert authorities.

1. Woman comes into toilet, man follows. Men see and are worried but can’t say anything because they will be branded bigots. Women o side find his behaviour concerning but also can’t say anything because they will be branded bigots. Man carries on in unchallenged.

In which situation is the liklihood of harm to the woman greater? 2.

I'm with Bowlofbabelfish the presumption that a man in the ladies is dodgy did provide some protection and whilst it may have made no difference in this case it highlights the vulnerability of women in toilets.

The social non acceptance is both a barrier and a layer of protection. There are men who aren’t quite bold enough to walk in due to fear of challenge. There are men who will actively stop another man from entering if they see them. The ability to challenge a man in the ladies is valuable too.

A poster called haxxor wrote a much more eloquent post on this a while back. Worth looking for.

Self ID makes toilets mixed sex. Men can Then enter with impunity. That will create issues.

I agree that in this case it might have made no difference but I think the general issue that nobody can challenge a man in women’s toilets anymore is an issue.

It’s entirely possible he would have assaulted her elsewhere; it’s less possible that such an attack would have been fatal.

Toilets are inherently dangerous places. There’s generally only one escape route and everything has a hard, often slippy surface.

Even if a blow was relatively harmless it can cause you to lose your footing. Being slapped stings; being slapped, losing your footing on a wet floor, and hitting your head on a sink or toilet bowl can kill you pretty easily.

If you look carefully at the photo it is clear that this was a unisex loo www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-47008903

Yep, I saw that Havelock

bowlofbabel your 1 / 2 are great but i'm not sure that many men would / do actually step in when there is a suspicion that a man may be up to no good?

Certainly threads on here indiciate a general apathy / fear of gettign involved / not my business / bystander effect etc

I’ve seen men ‘direct’ men away more than once. In the case recently of a younger man assaulting a woman, men challenged (young man with possible mental health issues, reporting was odd but implied some sort of identifying as a woman angle.)

Definitely agree there’s a bystander effect and apathy, but it’s the possibility of challenge that I think is a factor - the possibility of challenge by a large angry man is there. Remove it, and you get men like Balldemort who can sidle in with impunity.

It's good you have seen that happen.

It's off the back of a recent conversation with some men I know who said they wouldn't intervene if a schoolgirl was obviosuly being harrassed by a stranger because they wouldn't want to get in a fight.

Fucks sake

These are normal "nice" men with daughters.

Blimey nothing :( that’s grim.

I think a lot of men think "not my problem" when it comes to "womens issues" don't they.

It's left up to us to try and sort it out even if we're 13 and we get blamed if we can't.

While I understand that in this case it looks like some version of domestic violence, I’m totally with BowlofBabelfish and 2ndWaveFeminist. Taking away social (and legal) sanctions around some single-sex spaces is potentially dangerous for women.

I’ve said this before on here: there’s feminist history of accessibile public lavatories for women. Such spaces enabled women to work and socialise outside the home.

Look at the ratio of Male/female lavatory provision in some old buildings/workplaces. The preponderance of Male lavatories indicates that planners just did not see women as inhabiting public spaces. Public spaces are historically coded as and designed for men.

Men often do step in, as is evidenced by many of the cases of "trans women" claiming they've been assaulted in toilets, turning out to have happened in female toilets, when men, (eg male security guards or other males) have removed them for being males intruding on girls and women's privacy.

• I really should proof read. Sorry. I blame lack of sleep and the heat. [Sydney summer].

(Waves to AnotherBewilderedQuoll) the heat has been horrendous hasn’t it? Thankfully last nights thunderstorm has cooled things down a bit.

I think sadly men do think twice about intervening these days. Especially when things are occurring in public involving strangers. There have been incidents where a man has intervened and been killed for it.

I personally know a guy who called out out some creeps that were hassling some young women and got such a severe beating he was in a coma. He was a big guy too. Fortunately he’s recovered with no ill effects, but it took a long time.

The women's toilets in many locations used to be a way to give women information about DV and rape crisis services It was often the only way to reach women in coercive relationships.
Now those services have been made mixed sex anyway.