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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are little boys steeped in violence?

69 replies

BejamNostalgia · 24/01/2019 23:51

Posted this on here because I thought it might go down badly on AIBU and I suspect that people on here will have some interesting thoughts on this.

I have, semi accidentally, never exposed my sons to even the mildest depictions of violence. Neither I or DH likes Action, Sci Fi, Comic type stuff like Batman, spy films, so we don’t watch it. When our kids watch TV, we’re quite careful it is very age appropriate which means no violence. Because we don’t watch that sort of thing, he hasn’t seen Star Wars or Batman films and cartoons. He doesn’t have comic type books in his selection either, we just wouldn’t think of doing it.

We made a conscious decision not to restrict toy weapons. My eldest, who is six, had one foam sword from a fancy dress outfit when he was about four and wasn’t very interested. He has one toy gun which he was bought as a present, I allowed that because it’s all silly noises and flashing lights so it doesn’t actually bear any resemblance to a real gun whatsoever. Water pistols are okay though.

I’ve noticed as he has got bigger, that he doesn’t play fight, he doesn’t see it as a game. One of his little brothers will tumble around with him sometimes, but that’s it. I’ve noticed quite a few other boys have games which centre around pretending to fight, pretending to have guns or other weapons like nunchucks and pretending to punch and kick imaginary people. Most of them seem to have watched quite a lot of stuff with violence in it like Star Wars, Batman, action films, ninja turtles etc. They also have a lot of weapon toys which they use in games of fighting, action figures who are characters who fight. I know of primary schools boys who play fortnite, and when they get older it gets even worse with shoot ‘em ups and GTA.

I was thinking about why we, as a society, do this. I guess one part of it is that governments are always going to want men who like fighting, because they want them in their armies, but at what cost?

Fighting seems to be promoted to boys as a leisure activity which can be both worthy (goodies do it) and gets you what you want (winners get their own way). So can we really be surprised when so many little boys grow up into men responsible for an epidemic of violence against women?

It’s something I’d really like to see discouraged, tougher certifications, internet age controls on games, parents discouraged from buying weapons toys, shows like Ninja Turtles scrapped to reduce exposure to violence until they’re older, more education for parents about suitability of things like Batman for younger kids.

I know this all sounds incredibly dull and worthy, but I’m not a sandal wearing, yogurt bothering hippy at all. I have no problem with boys being boisterous or competitive and adventurous, I just really, really hate violence.

It’s not just sad for women, girls, children and even men and boys who are victims of violence, it’s sad for the little boys who grow up thinking violence is okay and desirable and end up in jail or with destructive lifestyles and will probably take a few beatings themselves along the way.

Do you think this sort of thing influences later life violence in men? Is there anything we could do which would make a meaningful difference?

OP posts:
Purplewithgreenspots · 25/01/2019 06:18

I think you answered your own question at the beginning. Despite women and children suffering at the hands of violent boys and men, the country always needs to have men ready to go to war.
History has shown this to be necessary. War can happen at any time. We need men who can be called upon to kill in our name and we need them to not be at death’s door, hence free school meals, the nhs and benefits.

Dragon3 · 25/01/2019 07:12

I was thinking about why we, as a society, do this. I guess one part of it is that governments are always going to want men who like fighting, because they want them in their armies, but at what cost?

This had genuinely never occurred to me. But of course it makes sense. I think that the normalisation of violence certainly means that some men feel emboldened and justified in using violence as adults.

I have found that many boys and girls enjoy good humoured play fighting/wrestling as a way of testing their strength and boundaries. Establishing where they fall in the hierarchy. This is normal in terms of child development and various young mammals do it. Play fighting that is obviously influenced by violent TV, computer games distorts this need IMO.

KataraJean · 25/01/2019 07:38

I do not think the association is that simple.

Of my DC, it is my DD who has watched Starwars and Superheroes, and all kinds of grim stuff that involves fantasy vampires and imaginary powers and stuff like that. I have not yet seen her doing any of the things she watches.

DS watches some stuff which has fights in it, but as part of the story line. Some of it I have watched with him. He is on the autistic spectrum and quite frankly, he was hitting and biting me before he was ever allowed TV (he has grown out of this with therapy and addressing some issues of stress in our lives). But he would not ever do this at school or outside where he turns into the most law-abiding pupil ever.

So while I agree there may be some connection with excessive watching of violent shows and real life violence, and the idea that violence is a way of men behaving culturally, I do not think it is a given that watching some violence on TV as part of a show makes you violent.

Sarahjconnor · 25/01/2019 07:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

beenandgoneandbackagain · 25/01/2019 09:55

Why do young animals / mammals play fight? It's so that when it comes to getting a mate, they're used to it. Male aggression to "get" a mate is where it starts and I suspect why young males are conditioned to be that way by society.

Having said that, my daughter has been brought up with play violence and physically violent female role models. She has toy swords, and watches strong female characters, and as soon as she's old enough will be able to watch the entire series of Buffy. There are no toy guns in the house because I believe a gun is not a toy, guns are for killing, not for playing. I have a real sword and a real gun.

I'm also aware that soon I'm going to have to talk to her about how male violence is different, and that although she can out-punch the boys in her class now, come puberty that won't be the case, so she will need to appease, and talk down violent situations, just like every other woman on this planet has learned to do.

I do think there is some relationship between children watching extreme porn/violence and their mental health and behaviours, so I do think that there could be more done to reduce some violence. I think games such as GTA are a sickness, written and created by sick people, and I seriously question why anybody would want to roleplay buying, selling, beating and murdering women.

2010Aussie · 25/01/2019 13:07

I think that it's in their DNA - you've only got to look at what happens when big boys spill out of the pub on a Saturday night with a few beers inside them.

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:14

I've watched starwars etc. My father had a led shot rifle we used, in the garden (in the middle of nowhere). My school took us on an adventure holiday where I used air rifles. 80s. I'm not violent. It's not the guns.

IMHO it's the very early experiences that shape things.

Girls can be physical too.

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:18

Arse which I could type more. Place marking.

I've done quite a bit of research into all this op, I'll try to come back sometime soon.

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:22

One good quick link:

sonshinemagazine.com/magazine/introductions-emma-allen

CatholicDadof2 · 25/01/2019 13:28

I don't believe there is a causal link between childhood toys/activities and violent behaviour later on in life. The rough play is just a natural part of growing up for boys. You want them to be tough and resiliant, not weak and cowardly.

reallyanotherone · 25/01/2019 13:37

^I think that it's in their DNA - you've only got to look at what happens when big boys spill out of the pub on a Saturday night with a few beers inside them*

I don’t think it’s “in their DNA”. It is the way they are socialised- how many times have i read on here that boys are like labradors- need food, love and plenty of physical exercise. To them fighting and physicality is the way they sort out arguments- girls are complicated emotional creatures that use their wiles to manipulate people.

Get a drink inside either sex and these characteristics are amplified. Boys offer a fight to those who wrong them, girls cry in the toilets.

Micah · 25/01/2019 13:39

The rough play is just a natural part of growing up for boys. You want them to be tough and resiliant, not weak and cowardly

What about girls? Do you allow them to be “weak and cowardly”, or do you also teach them rough play so they grow up strong and resilient?

If girls manage to grow up strong and resilient without learning to be physically rough, i am very sure boys can do the same.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 25/01/2019 13:43

I don’t think my ds is steeped in violence😬he’s 25 and a very gentle soul

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:47

Hurrah! Unscheduled baby boob nap.

There's no link between rough and tumble and gun play and later adult violence. In fact, the opposite. If you read the link above it explains it. ( again: sonshinemagazine.com/magazine/introductions-emma-allen)

There's more links with general gender stereotyping and later violence.

This is episode 1 of no more boys or girls where the link to male stereotypes and possible adult violence is briefly but strongly made and demonstrated.

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:50

Tough and tumble play at a young age has important connotations for understanding limits of physical interaction and consent.

I did a teachers www.jabadao.org course which went into the theory behind this.

InternetRandomer · 25/01/2019 13:53

If your ds isnt “into” play fighting or fighting of any nature then you might find he’s at a bit of a disadvantage as he gets older. Although you don’t say his/their ages. Like it or not most boys encounter “violence” from their peers and surely you want them to be able to stand up for themselves? My ds was never much into play fighting and we certainly would have discouraged it at home anyway but by the age of 8/9 we realised he didn’t know how to stand up for himself if anyone got physical with him and have had to teach him how to fight back. He was absolutely becoming a target.

You may take a different approach and not want your ds to stand up for himself in a physical way but all the good intentions and avoidance of even seeing cartoon depictions of fighting won’t help them when some kid starts pushing and shoving him.

Steamfan · 25/01/2019 13:53

I think there's an awful lot of people who no longer understand what is "real" anymore. We were doing a WW1 display at an event, one of the items we take with us is a Lewis gun. A young man came over to talk to us, and told us that he'd actually fired one of these things. So, DH asked him where this was. "Oh I was running across No Mans Land, blasting the enemy" came the reply. Right. DH asked him if it was some sort of computer game - it was - so he told him to pick the gun up, and run with it. It's very, very heavy, it can't be done. He couldn't do it - took him all his time to pick it up. But he believed until that moment that he really, really could. So the object of this long ramble is, how many others can't tell what's real and what's not?

InternetRandomer · 25/01/2019 13:54

Sorry just seen you say your eldest is six. Still very little really then.

mooncuplanding · 25/01/2019 13:55

Testosterone and other androgens

Male humans are different to female humans in their physiology and violence is one of those differences.

Physical violence is the male domain - some more than others but the most violent humans are overwhelmingly male

Relationship violence is the female domain - bitching, maneuvering, manipulating, gossiping. Again to differing degrees but women as a group are more aggressive in the relationship domain, using techniques to break down our much needed human connections

BejamNostalgia · 25/01/2019 13:57

It’s not so much the tumble play I meant. My DS does that with one of his brothers. It’s more when you see three and four year olds taking up fighting stances and going ‘nunchucks armed, shuriken armed, fighting team go, go, go’.

I know not every child exposed to it will become violent, especially girls, but if people have a natural disposition inclined towards violence, it’s sure as hell going to make sure it’s well developed.

OP posts:
Racecardriver · 25/01/2019 13:57

I wasn’t exposed to these things as a child. Still occasionally play fought. I am female. Never committed any crimes violent or otherwise. I don’t think it’s assimple as depictions of violence cause violence. On a fundamental level it is a disservice to children to shield them from violence altogether. They need to learn about history which is incredibly violent. A far better method would be to raise children to be moral.

Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 13:58

It's just play

BejamNostalgia · 25/01/2019 14:01

Like it or not most boys encounter “violence” from their peers and surely you want them to be able to stand up for themselves?

I don’t think that necessarily has to come from watching violent films. I mean, watching the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles when you’re six is not going to make you capable of battering someone who is trying to batter you when you’re 14. Being fit and healthy would probably be more an advantage in that situation than watching fighting on TV.

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Tackytriceratops · 25/01/2019 14:06

Are you deliberately ignoring my posts? Have you watched the documentary?

BejamNostalgia · 25/01/2019 14:14

FFS Tacky, I didn’t know you expected a personal reply and I don’t have time to watch a documentary right now.

As I said, I’m not talking about natural rough and tumble play.

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