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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Kirkup: Coffee House Is it now a crime to like a poem about transgenderism?

48 replies

TimeLady · 24/01/2019 15:19

James seems hopping mad.....

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/is-it-now-a-crime-to-like-a-poem-about-transgenderism/

This is, of course, a story about Twitter, and transgenderism. Miller says he was interviewed by the police and warned about his ‘thinking’ because he had used his Twitter account to express opinions about transgenderism and the law as it applies to gender.

Mr Miller says "This is where it gets incredibly sinister. The cop told me that he needed to speak with me because, even though I’d committed no crime whatsoever, he needed (and I quote) ‘to check my THINKING!’ Seriously. Honestly.

"Finally, he lectured me. Said, ‘Sometimes, a woman’s brain grows a man’s body in the womb and that is what transgender is.’ You can imagine my response…"

OP posts:
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 25/01/2019 07:42

I remember when there was an initiative to get ethnic minorities to report racist abuse. Most people I knew just rolled their eyes and said ‘yeah I’m sure they will really care!’. Nowadays it’s ‘call 999’ for a snagged finger nail.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 25/01/2019 09:21

I would love to know if any of the major BAME, disability or minority faith organisations are experiencing the same attentiveness of the police when someone calls to complain about racist tweets, disablist tweets or anti-Semitic tweets

I'd be interested to know the answer to that too. I have a feeling the answer would be a resounding 'no'.

2rebecca · 25/01/2019 09:28

What happened to the woman who actually wrote the limerick? Why did they pick on this particular guy? It's all bizarre as the "limerick" wasn't directed at any one person, it's like one Christian phoning the police about someone retweeting a poem mocking Christianity and the police spending 20 minutes harassing the retweeter. It wouldn't happen.

LangCleg · 25/01/2019 09:39

Why did they pick on this particular guy?

He was the one who had doxxable links on his profile, presumably.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/01/2019 10:05

We have to ask why lobbying groups are being allowed to write guidance and policy documents for the police and prison services. What is going on here? This can not be right.

Add in why lobbying groups are rewriting medical treatment guidelines while you’re there.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 25/01/2019 10:22

I'd be interested to know who in the lobby groups are writing policy documents for other organizations and what their qualifications and backgrounds are. I hope the police asked the same questions.

R0wantrees · 25/01/2019 17:33

He was the one who had doxxable links on his profile, presumably.

Its very common for TRAs and allies on Twitter to dismiss 'gender critical' people who do not have identifiable details on their twitter accounts.

Needmoresleep · 25/01/2019 17:42

*We have to ask why lobbying groups are being allowed to write guidance and policy documents for the police and prison services. What is going on here? This can not be right.

Add in why lobbying groups are rewriting medical treatment guidelines while you’re there.*

And NSPCC/Girl Guide policy...

R0wantrees · 25/01/2019 18:08

& prison policies.

R0wantrees · 25/01/2019 18:16

Social Care toolkits and resources for children in the care system, NHS ward policies etc

Tara Hewitt
Workshop for Health care professionals in North West England

'Trans People and Cancer Session - Tara Hewitt'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc

Tara Hewitt & ThreeCircles created resources for children and young people in the care system & a toolkit for foster carers and social care professionals supporting them, These were promoted at the The Adoption and Fostering Alliance (AFA) Scotland Health Group Conference last year:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3324578-Vunerabilities-of-Looked-After-Children-Social-Work-CP-restricted-by-affirmation-requirement-Trans-Youth-in-Care-Toolkit

Dramatisation of Susie Green & Mermaids story as Social work training?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448221-Recommendation-that-Butterfly-used-as-training-material-for-social-workers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

Freespeecher · 26/01/2019 01:27

Sargon of Akkad did his latest effort on Humberside Police, going on to show clips of Posie Parker v Adrian Harrop.

Doubt he has many fans here but it's indicative that the free speech brigade are joining in on the side of reason and he has a reasonably large audience both here in the US. Maybe it's a sign she'll get to go on some of that type of show (Rubin Report, Joe Rogan Experience) while she's stateside.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 02:01

Doubt he has many fans here

Freespeecher That's an understatement. I don't know who Sargon of Akkad is but his views on women are clear. What an arrogant man.

He's very ill-informed about radical feminism and its bizarre to see this shared on MN FWR.

Harry has been standing up for Women's rights. That's the motivations for his tweets.

Trans rights activism is often described as a men's rights movement. Watching other MRAs who have additional agendas join in won't surprise many women.

AlexaDavie · 26/01/2019 02:55

@R0wantrees

“Doubt he has many fans here

Freespeecher That's an understatement. I don't know who Sargon of Akkad is but his views on women are clear. What an arrogant man.”

Did you watch the video? His conclusion seemed to be that feminism split into TERFs and intersectional SJWs and that state power was on the side of the SJWs and this power would now be used persecute TERFs until we saw TERFs jailed. Sargon started something called “the liberalists” and said we (his lot) would have to side with the TERFs. Not because he has any sympathy for feminism but because he is a ‘don’t agree with what you say but will defend your right to say it type’ and says he believes the state is engaging in a sort of ideological inquisition which he thinks is terrifying.

But yeah he’s no fan of TERFs and said they were too vile to ever get state power as the SJWs have done. I also laughed at his description of Posie and the Doctor. But then I’m not a feminist TBH, I just share some of the TERF concerns about safety for women and girls.

Sargon is a UKIP member who has appeared publicly with its leader. He’s basically an old fashioned liberal his targets seem to be SJWs, the Alt Right and what he sees as the over reach of the state as described in the video ‘The Ethical State’.

Freespeecher · 26/01/2019 10:31

On the 'Courting the Far Right is wrong' thread, Lisa Muggeridge was saying that the free speech battle needs to be won first.

The video is an example of how, to outsiders, which side is on the side of free speech and therefore deserves support.

It will have been the first time a lot of his viewers will have seen the 'woman: adult human female' billboard (and Harrop attacking it) and that, as well as Humberside Police getting involved with someone liking a post on the other side of the Atlantic, will tell them just about all they need to know regarding the current madness.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 11:40

Did you watch the video?

AlexaDavie Yes hence my comment.
'Terf' is a dehumanising slur which has been used to silence women.

if as you say,
"I just share some of the TERF concerns about safety for women and girls." then you will stop using the term and encourage others to do the same.

See here how it is used against women:
terfisaslur.com/

That other men, especially MRA who are not transactivists are using it will surprise few women.

A heads up, its also also a term (along with others) which is not permitted on the FWR chat board where discussions are intended to be civilised. There is a pinned post on the board.

As you're clearly new to the board and the issues, there is a thread which many have found helpful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 12:44

On the 'Courting the Far Right is wrong' thread, Lisa Muggeridge was saying that the free speech battle needs to be won first.

Freespeecher No she hasn't. Why are you misrepresenting her?

She has written,
You find equivalence between the disturbing levels of abusive male pattern behaviour among noted TRAS, predatory behaviour, intimidation, and disturbing abuse and stalking of women, with women having a broad range of political views? THat is mad as owt. Really.
she then discussed breakfast choices which seems an appropriate response to male entitement and a rather pathetic attempt at controlling women here.

Sargon/ Carl Benjamin is hardly 'just' a UKIP member / old fashioned liberal and those who follow him are a specific group of mostly males.
What the video actually demonstrates is how some MRA will use the silencing of womenby males to try and advance their agendas.
(none of this is news to women here)

Wiki:
Carl Benjamin (born c. 1979) is a British YouTuber, political commentator and polemicist better known by the online alias Sargon of Akkad. Benjamin grew to prominence through the Gamergate controversy and early videos supporting antifeminism. Since Gamergate he has covered topics such as identity politics and the alt-right, and is a critic of political correctness, feminism, and Islam.

In December 2018, Benjamin was the object of a widely-publicized controversy, when he was banned from Patreon for violating the site's terms of service by using "racial and homophobic slurs to degrade another individual". Benjamin's supporters, and public figures such as Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin, have called the ban a violation of free speech and an expression of political bias by Patreon.

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 15:05

Harry Miller:

“I have a wife, a mother and daughters, and when it comes to their rights and safety and those of women everywhere, men need to speak up…I can’t believe what is happening in the UK in the name of transgenderism and, worse still, we’re not even allowed to think never mind talk about it.”

FloralBunting · 26/01/2019 15:16

Yes indeed, R0wantrees. I'm a believer in free speech and that's a big plank of the platform I stand on. But I am also a promoter of independent critical thought, and, primarily, women's rights.

So, sure, I'm ok with people standing for free speech. That doesn't translate as me having to be cravenly grateful for every unpleasant MRA who takes the right to free speech seriously and ignoring the anti-women shite they also promote.

Free speech is great precisely because we are then able to openly critique oppressive and stupid ideas without fear.

So, it wouldn't really be consistent for a free speech advocate to piss and moan because he pushed stupid ideas about the women's rights/trans controversy and some feminists told him exactly why his ideas were wrong.

AlexaDavie · 26/01/2019 16:52

“Freespeecher

On the 'Courting the Far Right is wrong' thread, Lisa Muggeridge was saying that the free speech battle needs to be won first.”

Sargon isn’t far right. Free speech is sacred, or at least it should be, but the likes of Sargon are just old fashioned liberals, not far right. Far right is another word for alt right which is just the old fascistic BNP type nationalists.

AlexaDavie · 26/01/2019 17:06

“Did you watch the video?

AlexaDavie Yes hence my comment.
'Terf' is a dehumanising slur which has been used to silence women.”

And you didn’t think he was basically on the money? I did. Anyway, if you feel that TERF is offensive then I won’t use it here. But only because you have asked me not to use it. I won’t be told what I can and can’t say. But since you asked I would therefore ask you what would you prefer me to call the non-intersectional feminists? For me it’s a difficult balance, I’m not going to seek to offend people unnecessarily and I’m not going to silence myself to avoid giving offense either, but I’m afraid I won’t try to tell anyone else what they can and can’t say.

userschmoozer · 26/01/2019 17:13

AlexaDavie Mumsnet has banned the use of TERF. There is a list of forum rules you need to abide by to post. Its pinned to the top of the board.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

R0wantrees · 26/01/2019 17:19

Anyway, if you feel that TERF is offensive then I won’t use it here. But only because you have asked me not to use it. I won’t be told what I can and can’t say.

I asked you to understand how it is used to smear and silence women.

Its nothing to do with my taking offence.

There are a number of rules with regards posting on this board and I gave you a heads up because posts which breach the terms here will be deleted and repeated breaches lead to posters being banned.

previous article by James Kirkup in Spectator:
March 2018
'Fear and loathing grips the gender debate'
(extract)
Bluntly, why the hell is no one in politics shouting from the rooftops about this stuff? We’re talking about people trying to put the frighteners on Mumsnetters, for goodness sake. In any other area of public life, politicians usually fall over themselves in their rush to speak up for middle-class working mothers. Yet the politicians who were desperate to talk biscuits at Mumsnet Towers are curiously silent about the intimidation that some women now report there.

If this was simply a story of a small number of nasty people online and – sometimes – on the street doing bad things to women who speak up about a political issue, I suspect this problem wouldn’t persist. The relevant legal and political authorities would indeed pay attention to that fear, and maybe even do something, even if that was just listening to those women, meeting them, answering their questions.

But that doesn’t seem to be happening. It’s because those women have been – quite successfully and even skilfully – demonised and stigmatised, put beyond the pale of civilised debate as those who question orthodoxy often are. They’ve been given a name, a name that means they’re bad people, people who should not speak and should not be heard. That name is “Terf,” which once meant “Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist” but now appears to stand in its own right as a term of abuse and dismissal alongside the other short, harsh words often used to question the worth and virtue of women.

And that small number of people who direct violence and abuse at “Terfs” are swimming in a larger sea of contempt and dismissal. Their conduct takes place in a social context where hostility to “Terfs” has become not just normal but even amusing, where there is no social cost to talking about and perhaps even inciting violence towards women who hold “unacceptable” views. Simply, some people, including people who would never themselves engage in that sort of violence, are doing things that make violent discourse and even violence look and feel OK. Sadly, they include journalists and politicians, people who parade their support for minority groups but speak about feminist women in terms they would never use about other people." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

OvaHere · 26/01/2019 17:23

TERF in itself is just a descriptive acronym however it's been turned into a dehumanising and othering slur by TRAs who wield it in the same way as 'witch' or 'whore'. That's why it's usage is frowned upon here (with the odd exceptions for quotation or ironic humour).

Most feminists here would see themselves as radfems (radical feminist, the radical part meaning root). However don't assume that many of the posters who have wound up on this board are feminists in the way you imagine them to be or even recognise themselves as feminists at all. Many are just women of all walks of life who have gravitated towards a space where concerns can be aired.

So I suppose in answer to your question you could just call us women!

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