Trump military transgender ban goes ahead **This post was edited by MNHQ**

[Darnsquirrels]

US Supreme Court allows Trump military transgender ban www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46963426

Growing up watching MASH I thought the point of dressing up as a woman was to get out of the army.

I read that because they are entitled to free healthcare that trans could have the surgery/treatment whilst enlisted. Making them undeployable. I can see why they have put a stop to it. As a PP said if they have already been through transition surely they should be allowed to serve?

I think this is a sop to people like Pence who believe that women and men shouldn't deviate from their gender roles, and probably don't believe women should be in the army either.

Obviously the army should be able to exclude people if they can't do their job, and everyone's privacy should be respected, but I don't think that is what this is about.

This is about right wing evangelistic Christianity - the 'Don't ask don't tell' 'It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' brigade.

Do not underestimate the size and power of this group in US politics and legislature.

I don't like a blanket ban because that is just discrimination and there is no good reason for it.
However, if there are medical needs that are incompatible with service then that is acceptable.
And they cannot be allowed to have full access to women's private spaces.

This video is quite striking
www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/2402145309816945/UzpfSTM0MTE2MzQwMjY0MDQ1NzoyMzkwODM2MTQ3NjczMTYy/

Unless I’m missing something, I cant see any justification for this ban at all.

Usual shitty low-information reporting.

The Medical Standards for the army provided that those admitted should not have

"a [c]urrent or history of psychosexual conditions, including but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias""

this was changed on June 30 2016 by the Obama administration to repeal this with respect to transgenderism.

Trump repealed this on August 2017, saying 'no transgender people in the military', but this was challenged, and on March 23 2018 put out a memo cancelling the August 2017 memo and allowing the DoD to put in place restrictions.

The Mattis recommendations, issued post-August 2017, and pre-March 2018 (so essentially less restrictive than Trump's initial 'no transgenders), which are essentially the current policy:

• serving personnel who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria while the old policy was active can get treatment on the government dime, and serve as the gender of their choice

• serving personnel who are/were diagnosed with gender dysphoria at any other time, can continue to serve, but only in their biological sex

• anyone whose gender identity differs from their biological sex can serve, but only in their biological sex. If they also have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria they must have lived in their biological sex for 36 months prior to joining

The point I think that is being missed here, and it is a big one, is the drive to make 'gender identity' something that is NOT deemed to be a disorder. Indeed DSM-5 uses 'gender dysphoria' rather than 'gender identity disorder' in DSM-4. That's to avoid the nasty word 'disorder', which political trans activists want gone, because as with Mermaids they want to say that it's essentially a neutral choice whether your child is castrated, infertile & has osteoporosis at 25, or not.

I think it's important to see the vast, gaping chasm between the way the TRAs would have it, and something that approaches objectivity.

For example, if I am a male rapist and I 'identify' as a woman by putting on a dress and going into a female space, then the TRAs would say that my identity is true and valid, just because. But psychologists still, today, would say that that identity is a disorder that can be diagnosed, and one that has "clinically significant distress or impairment". If I get my rocks off by wanking in my wife's panties, then that's NOT by itself gender dysphoria.

So here we see in terms of the military policy first of all an attempt to pin down what the fuck it actually means to be trans. For a lot of people it's something you do on Twitter or whatever. 'I say I am a woman therefore I am'. That's however meaningless drivel. 'A man' who identifies as 'a woman', but who wears 'butch' clothing is indistinguishable from a 'man'. In fact a lot of people who claim to be transgender don't, er, seem to do anything about it.

And saying 'I'm carrying a handbag, so you must perceive me as a woman' is sexist and regressive as fuck. Men can carry handbags, it's nobody's business.

Clearly the diagnosis for gender dysphoria is a valid criterion here (even if there are nutters like Dr. W who will knock them out for £50 over the internet), and 'being trans' is a meaningless statement.

So you have someone who is diagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria, hence IS trans, rather than someone pretending to be trans (the TRAs won't accept this criterion, but fuck them), and if they're not diagnosed with this then clearly the claim to be trans is ridiculous in the first place, and there's not even a QUESTION about their eligibility.

And then if they have the GD diagnosis they are saying

(a) no biological males serving as women (because duh) or vice versa
(b) we won't pay for your surgery (because why should they?)

They have been trying to say that the cost of the treatment 'is not that much' or whatever out of the army's trillions, but more fundamentally to what end are you trying to transition? If you are going to transition to 'become a woman' then how does that work with being a soldier?

And note that the policy memo literally ONLY says that the DoD can make policies (it doesn't place any restrictions of itself), so potentially if there are jobs/branches of the military where there are fewer issues then they can allow people to transition.

In terms of ongoing medication, for MtF trans people who have had orchidectomy, often they will be on something like a double dose of hormonal contraception. Missing a few doses isn't a medical emergency, in the way that missing medication for diabetes or asthma would be. Unlikely to be a problem for the military.
For FtM people, there's long-acting formulations of testosterone which only need an injection every few months, and again, it isn't immediately dangerous to go overdue. Not in itself a problem for the military.

For MtF people who haven't had an orchidectomy, they would need either daily pills, or an injection maybe once a week. This in itself shouldn't be a problem, but testosterone blockers would make it more difficult for them to meet men's physical fitness standards.

I’m uncomfortable with trans women serving in the military. Given the significant history and mishandling of rape and sexual assault, I don’t think that women serving should have to sleep, shower, dress etc next to a male.

I’d have no concerns whatsoever if this was a case of uniform and pronouns, but it’s not, like most subjects TRA’s make it a case of “all or nothing” and when it’s put in those terms, I reluctantly conclude that it has to be nothing.

This thread is one of many examples of how we terfs are so bloody dangerous. I mean, logical debate? Differing opinions? Thoughtful responses? Getoutahere.
But nup; it's hate speech.

testosterone blockers would make it more difficult for them to meet men's physical fitness standards

I wonder how much more difficult this would be. A significant obstacle that would weed out more than 50% of the relevant group, something that could be overcome by most if there were highly committed and pushed themselves, etc?

For once I agree with trump on this. You can't serve for various medical reasons (asthma, diabetes etc) therefore if you have a medical issue as a result of gender reassignment then this needs to be considered too. Also they are not saying every transgender is banned it's just to be considered, which seems fair.

On the medication front I was prescribed contraceptives and mefenamic acid due to painful periods, should I have been excluded from the military and the tour I did in Afghanistan?

From what I understand some women already have difficulty accessing the pill when they are on long term deployment.

I am gender critical, but I think this is a knee jerk ban that isn't evidence based. The terms 'trans' and 'in the military' are so broad that they are meaningless and I do not trust Trump's motives. I wouldn't assume that any policy initiated by a Trump tweet has been been properly evaluated and I think the next step is banning women for vague non-specific reasons.

In summary, I think that if there is a medical basis for excluding somebody from military service, that should be possible under existing law without issuing blanket bans.

There is a very very long list of disqualifying conditions from the US Army.

www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html

Being transgender is, we are told, a medical condition, requiring expensive treatment by the NHS/health insurance.

So why would it be exempt?

The problem is that transgender is such a vague description and can mean 'takes medication and requires surgery' or 'has blue hair'.

In summary, I think that if there is a medical basis for excluding somebody from military service, that should be possible under existing law without issuing blanket bans.
I understand it was under existing law until Obama decided to be woke about it.
It's like the Dreamer thing. It's not a new law, it's rolling back exceptions Obama made.

People forget Obama deported more than any other president and he put migrant children in cages. If you're against this you have to acknowledge it's not just a Trump thing. I'd argue you also have to acknowledge that a significant percentage of these children are accompanied by adults unrelated to them and there are complex safeguarding needs that become apparent when a crossing is intercepted by border officers. It's much easier to just say "OMG the orange one is a Nazi".

Political conversation has become so wildly partisan that facts are being deliberately omitted.

If the US had a better healthcare system the issue of trans people serving wouldn't be so fraught. But because healthcare (and tertiary education) are tied up with military service for so many, it becomes a much more emotional argument.

Obama was 'woke' about it because other western countries have been allowing transgender people to serve for at least 18 years (I went through military training with a transgender female in 2001) My experience isn't media hype, it's real.

Having worked with the US military where personnel were throwing themselves in front of vehicles to try and get home following 18 month + deployments if anyone is willing to serve in the American military then damn right they should get free healthcare and education.

I don't think the army should have to pay for transitioning but if a person is fit and well to serve then there is no reason at all to exclude them based on being trans.

I understand from trans groups in the UK that many if not most trans people are suicidal. I can’t believe it’s better in the USA.

How would that work out for military service ?

other western countries have been allowing transgender people to serve for at least 18 years
Well I'm glad you've got real world experience of it, that's very interesting. However as mentioned previously the US is a different kettle of fish.
It's possible to accrue medical cover and college tuition and never once be at risk of deployment. The US military is as litigious as the US public so they are cautious employers. The end result is 18 month tours for everyone else.
If you're interested in the US military I can recommend Rachel Maddow's book, it describes the disconnect between the public and the military very well.

damn right they should get free healthcare and education
I'm old fashioned, I think everyone should get this.
And that the armed forces be comprised of genuine volunteers not those coerced by US economics.

The ban is also on behaving as though you are other than the sex you are.

The ban is fair. Consider the military. All aspects of your life are controlled. You are told what to wear, when to get up, what to do all day, how long you can wear your hair, what to eat on many occasions, when you can travel and have free time.
I am a goth. I could not join the military and wear black clothes, multiple piercings, teased hair, and black lipstick.
If you want to, as a male, wear frilly skirts and earrings and demand people call you by a girl name but have no intention of having sex change surgery, you will just have to wait until your term of service is over. The military is not a place for personal self-expression.

I saw this interview on CNN the other day, and thought Capt Peace spoke very well. It was an informative and calm discussion, as would be expected from a professional like Christiane Amanpour.

www.thirteen.org/programs/amanpour-co/capt-jennifer-peace-being-transgender-military-ubmf8p/