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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My Meeting with Maria Miller MP

61 replies

IAmDavidLewis · 19/01/2019 18:53

As a Basingstoke resident, I was able to request a meeting with my MP, Maria Miller. This meeting took place on Friday, 11th January and I thought I’d share it with you, as I found it quite interesting and informative.

I asked her first about what she said back in 2016:

“...there seems to be an undercurrent of opinion among some that trans people shouldn’t be treated equally, even when they’ve had a legal change in their gender, and that in some way this is a threat to women; I simply reject that.

But [single-sex services, such as rape crisis centres] should be supporting trans women”

Versus what she said at the end of December:

“... focus on getting services right first and foremost, and also be clear that there is no threat to single-sex services, they are clearly protected in law”.

She does not consider what she said in December to be any kind of back-track, despite what Helen Lewis wrote.

She told me that there is no threat to single-sex spaces because there is an adequate risk assessment process that ensures a trans person is placed either somewhere that recognises their gender or recognises that women should be kept separate from that person. With regards to the justifiable and proportionate discrimination in the Equality Act, it’s “superfluous” because this risk assessment is already being done.

She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen. Critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) or to the prison service “which is segregated by gender for very specific reasons”. However, she did say to send any evidence of trans women being a danger to women and girls, “other than in prisons”.

She equated being trans today in the UK to being black in the 60s in the UK, basically that people fear what they don’t know, and equated Gender Dysphoria with homosexuality, in as much as neither should be considered mental health issues.

When I mentioned “unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex”, her response was surprising. She said no one in Government has said that the GRA consultation was suggesting unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex. In her mind, the only change being put forward is to remove the medical diagnosis. Whilst she didn’t say it explicitly, this indicates that she expects the rest of the criteria to remain in place (2 years in acquired gender, documentary proof, etc), so a meaningful transition would need to be evident for someone to gain a GRC.

Her reason for removing the medical diagnosis is that doctors often don’t have a clue about a suitable and respectful diagnosis process. She said there are questions such as “have you dressed as a woman for two years?” We were able to agree that’s a pretty bad question to ask anyone! Given a poor diagnosis process, the push to concentrate on improving services and support seems very sensible. She’s actually quite annoyed that self ID got pushed to the forefront.

In her mind, the only reason people are criticising trans ideology is transphobia itself. “They fear what they don’t know”... (okay then, explain Miranda and Debbie and Fionne and and and...). She mentioned Bangladesh as a place where society is accepting of trans women. She feels that schools have an important role in talking to students about transgenderism.

I made a strong statement about tackling gender stereotypes as part of the education that schools should undertake. She did agree with me, which felt a quite positive outcome. I said that I hoped it would be included as part of the GRA consultation, but she replied that it wouldn’t be as the scope of the consultation had already been determined.

She got a little annoyed with me when I said that “the other side” had safeguarding concerns about men who’d abuse the system. The Government, at least, does not want safeguards to be compromised. I did say about the stats showing that men and trans women have the same level of offending, indicating that transition didn’t actually reduce the danger posed by men. The reply? NAMALT. She also mentioned trans men, only in as much as no one seems to have a problem with them.

I felt she assumed I was mostly uninformed and pointed me to Stonewall and students at Queen Mary College, as “young people seem to get it”.

She repeated her line from the Fawcett Society Courage Calls: Ask Her To Stand event (“Trans women are women, that’s the law”), my only regret being I forgot to point out that the EHRC guidance now disagrees with her. Seems it’s quite difficult to interrupt an MP in full flow!

So the main thing is that she clearly believes a trans woman is someone who looks and acts like a woman, someone who is making or has made a meaningful transition. Just saying you are one isn’t enough in her opinion, it would seem. Regardless of GRC, if you try to “pass”, you’re a woman.

OP posts:
feministfairy · 19/01/2019 22:28

The woman's idiocy knows no bounds.
As she's so keen on Bangladesh as a sparkling example of a trans friendly society it might be worth advising her (not that she'll listen) that the charity Wateraid and Andrex are currently running a campaign to build toilets for women in Bangladesh because of their lack of access to them (just as she's busy removing toilets for women and girls in the UK).

www.wateraid.org/us/media/female-friendly-toilet-guide-wateraid-unicef

OldCrone · 19/01/2019 22:48

She mentioned Bangladesh as a place where society is accepting of trans women.

Interesting example. A bit like suggesting Iran as an example of progressive thinking. Hijra are recognised as a 'third gender', but homosexuality is illegal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Bangladesh#Recognition_of_same-sex_relationships

OlennasWimple · 19/01/2019 22:55

I'm confused - is MM suggesting that we should follow Bangladesh and create a "third gender"? Surely that is not what she meant

OldCrone · 19/01/2019 23:00

I don't think MM has thought about what she means at all. If she had, she might not have come out with Bangladesh as a forward-thinking, progressive state (which outlaws homosexuality).

Socrates11 · 19/01/2019 23:54

"She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen."

Oh. Dear.
Davina/David Aryton did.
Nicola/Ross Florida did.
Jessica Winfield/Martin Pontin did.
Lisa/Craig Hauxwell did.
Karen White/Stephen Wood did.
......actually just look at the ever growing list for rape and sexual assault on Trans Crimes UK...transcrimeuk.com/category/sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault/
Oh never mind, if you haven't seen it it can't have happened eh?! What a quality MP 🙁

Ereshkigal · 19/01/2019 23:59

The other thing here: is the bar really set at ‘well ladies, no more privacy and dignity for you! But you’re not being raped in any significant numbers so shut the fuck up and be grateful.’

It would appear so.

Ereshkigal · 20/01/2019 00:01

Great post, 2010Equality

donquixotedelamancha · 20/01/2019 07:24

Does this suggest there may be a rethink of prison policy?

I don't think so. My impression is that prisons try to assess risk and segregate by sex when they can show it's necessary.

The problem is that between the EA and the GRA they sometimes have to put TW in women's prisons, even when there is a clear risk.

I'm sure Maria Miller sees that as prisons having a sensible, case by case policy- as opposed to being forced to weaken safeguards.

donquixotedelamancha · 20/01/2019 07:24

P.S. Well done OP. You made a great case there.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 20/01/2019 07:41

I find it interesting that she rules out other countries such as Canada when Canada provides an object lesson in the pitfalls of self ID and pandering to the trans lobby in all things.

They also jump at any chance to tell us how progressive Malta et al are...

hackmum · 20/01/2019 07:56

She sounds very confused indeed.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 20/01/2019 07:58

She sounds very confused indeed.

That's because she is trying to follow something which doesn't make sense.

AugustL · 20/01/2019 09:58

Thanks for doing that. Brave.
This is going to be garbled I'm on my phone and haven't slept , I might regret this.
She told me that there is no threat to single-sex spaces because there is an adequate risk assessment process that ensures a trans person is placed either somewhere that recognises their gender or recognises that women should be kept separate from that person. With regards to the justifiable and proportionate discrimination in the Equality Act, it’s “superfluous” because this risk assessment is already being done.
Which single -sex spaces? Maybe a prison (even though they often fail), or a refuge, but not the single-sex spaces we use everyday or single -sex shared hostel dorms etc. They aren't being risk assessed.
What about girls in schools etc. who don't want to share with teen boys?
She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen. Critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) or to the prison service “which is segregated by gender for very specific reasons”. However, she did say to send any evidence of trans women being a danger to women and girls, “other than in prisons”.
We've seen the stories, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that "trans women go around raping". that's what trans activists want people/authorities to think we think. The/my issue with this is not trans women it's men pretending to be/thinking they are trans when they're not.
(And also, not on this point, but girls (and boys) thinking they are trans when they are simply gender non-conforming). These are the problems with self id. Why do people not understand this??
And "critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) "- S he said that? what difference would it make which country it was, Also Canada has self ID!
She equated being trans today in the UK to being black in the 60s in the UK, basically that people fear what they don’t know, and equated Gender Dysphoria with homosexuality, in as much as neither should be considered mental health issues.
(I can't believe she compared it to being black. )
Well no, gender dysphoria is a mental issue (that may have a biological basis, although not proven yet), in the sense that you are female/male and think you are the opposite sex/have distress or discomfort as the sex you are. It doesn't mean the person is "mad" or have any stigma attached, it's a medical diagnosis like anything else, it diagnoses a condition or confirms a situation and indicates a pathway for treatment, i.e. transition. Being gender non-conforming is not a mental issue but that is not the same thing as being trans. And tbh when I see some trans women claim they menstruate, I can't help thinking there is a mental issue there. Also I bet I know more than her. Does she have a Psychology B.Sc, and what is her highest level of study in Biology? A lot of people will know more than her simply by observing what they see online. She is just trusting lobbyists like Stonewall and others. Who by the way need to end their all encompassing umbrella.
Also no it's not the same as homosexuality. Homosexuality is simply same sex attraction and doesn't require you to change anything about yourself or impact on others. Also, it's ironic that gender identity ideology is "transing" or coverting gender non-confomimg gay people to the opposite sex.
When I mentioned “unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex”, her response was surprising. She said no one in Government has said that the GRA consultation was suggesting unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex. In her mind, the only change being put forward is to remove the medical diagnosis. Whilst she didn’t say it explicitly, this indicates that she expects the rest of the criteria to remain in place (2 years in acquired gender, documentary proof, etc), so a meaningful transition would need to be evident for someone to gain a GRC.
You might be right but she might be referencing the statutory declaration, wrongly thinking that's a real protection. If she does mean what you say I don't think trans people will be happy, that was the part they had most issue with from what I saw and from the government's previous lgbt survey. Too bureaucratic, too long, and difficult to get all the documents needed, and unhappy that a panel of strangers looks over all this stuff to decide whether or not you can legally change. Stonewall also claimed it asked for photos and wasn't happy about that, although the GRA states it does not ask for photos. The data from the government's previous LGBT survey showed that the vast majority did not mind sharing info of their medical diagnosis/ records. I will have to dig out the info and come back. Even though stonewall and the GRA documents say they find it "stigmatising" and "pathologising ". BS. Trans people are open about gender dysphoria. Even though some people especially young people online are pushing the idea that you don't need it, you do. Gender dysphoria is necessary, otherwise you're just gender non-conforming or you're simply choosing to transition. They want to say , and the government stated, that being trans is not a choice, but then contradict by saying it is a choice as that's what " no requirement of Gender dysphoria" suggests.
The diagnosis helps rule other things out and safeguard, as another person in this thread said. As well as the things that poster mentioned, it also helps people figure things out - i.e. if they are simply gender non-conforming, or have body dysmorphia. It also helps direct a person to get the help they need, especially as trans people tend to have other conditions such as depression, self harm, anxiety. Do Tories want to remove medical diagnosis so they don't have to provide counselling, hormomes, surgery on NHS? The diagnosis is needed. It protects everyone including trans people and protects children who might be going down the wrong path.
Her reason for removing the medical diagnosis is that doctors often don’t have a clue about a suitable and respectful diagnosis process. She said there are questions such as “have you dressed as a woman for two years?” We were able to agree that’s a pretty bad question to ask anyone! Given a poor diagnosis process, the push to concentrate on improving services and support seems very sensible. She’s actually quite annoyed that self ID got pushed to the forefront.
"Doctors don't have a clue about suitable and respectful diagnosis process" says who ? GP s might not but gender expert or psychologists will have a better understanding, and who is telling her this? Stonewall? Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosis, and rules out other things. It's NOT about saying someone is mentally ill, as some trans activists claim. Also the question that is mentioned is perhaps for certain reasons, like to test commitment and it could be the individuals own interpretation of women's dress, although that question is perhaps relying on stereotypes. However seems something she apparently wants to keep in the GRA process? Dressing as/living as for 2 years? If there is a real problem with GP s they can get better training. And if she wants services to improve and believes they can, why is she suggesting removing it as a criteria? So have they made their mind up about that then? I remember an article a while ago when/after the consultation that said they were considering just keeping the diagnosis requirement.

Btw look you have to have a mental health assessment to get botox at Superdrug (and elsewhere) to rule things out www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6609073/Customers-wanting-Botox-dermal-fillers-Superdrug-face-mental-health-check.html

rememberatime · 20/01/2019 10:13

Hello neighbour (OP!). With regards her statement about the local college. My daughter and her friends attend and they do not think that transwomen are women - but that they have the right to dress any way they wish. It is a very different thing.

I imagine there are plenty of college kids who do believe the whole thing - but certainly not all of them.

In fact, I know of one parent who made a formal complaint of bullying against her child because her daughter is non-conforming and was being bullied by another child insisting she was and should be trans. She is just what we used to call a tomboy.

The point is that not all teens are "getting it". They are more than happy being their birth sex, even if they are not typical of that sex.

And well done for talking to MM. I have considered it myself, but couldn't face the inevitable...

IAmDavidLewis · 20/01/2019 21:50

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. @Apollo440, @2010Equality - I’ll draft a reply letter over the next couple of days.

OP posts:
GrinitchSpinach · 20/01/2019 22:49

She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen. Critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) or to the prison service “which is segregated by gender for very specific reasons”. However, she did say to send any evidence of trans women being a danger to women and girls, “other than in prisons”.

Well, Jacinta Brooks makes a nice homegrown "poster girl" for MM to contemplate. But more importantly, the only large study that followed male trans people for a number of years found that they retained male patterns of crime:

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.
Source:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

I can't put my hands on the UK stats for crime by sex of the perpetrator, but "male pattern regarding criminality" versus a female one means vastly, vastly more likely to commit a violent or sexual crime. Will try to find the stats for you.

GrinitchSpinach · 20/01/2019 23:05

Ok, here we go, from the ONS:

In the year ending March 2017, for violent crime:
perpetrators were most likely to be male, being reported to be the perpetrator in around three-quarters of violent incidents (78%)

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017#what-do-we-know-about-perpetrators-of-violent-crimes

In the year ending March 2017, for sexual offenses:
The vast majority of respondents who had experienced rape or assault by penetration since they were 16 reported that the offender(s) were male (99%)
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017

(Can't find non-penetrative stats at the moment, but this gives the picture).

Maria Miller needs to understand that male trans people retain male patterns of criminality, and that what this means is: the male people she wants blithely to throw into all previously protected women's and girls' spaces are overwhelmingly more likely (as a group, not singling out individuals) to be violent and to commit sexual offenses than natal females (as a group).

[And this is without even addressing the giant gaping loophole of self-id attracting all the creeps who have no genuine trans identity but would very much like to gain access to women and girls as potential victims.]

AliceToo · 20/01/2019 23:38

Yep just how I expected the report to unfold. But you did your bit.

NewYearNewName111 · 21/01/2019 00:14

I wonder what will happen the first time a GC feminist actually encounters a real transwoman in a real life bathroom situation - if it ever actually happens.

I'm imagining some kind of space/time continuum paradox will unfold.

OlennasWimple · 21/01/2019 00:38

Also the data collection issue: if crimes committed by transwomen are recorded as crimes committed by women, we can't tell whether transwomen are statistically, more / less / just as likely to commit a crime as a man or a woman. Though obviously the sharp increase in rapes recorded as committed by a woman should give some idea to what is happening, given that rape (in English law) is forcible penetration with a penis

OlennasWimple · 21/01/2019 00:39

I wonder what will happen the first time a GC feminist actually encounters a real transwoman in a real life bathroom situation - if it ever actually happens.

Because obviously that has never ever happened already? Right..... Hmm

NewYearNewName111 · 21/01/2019 02:37

It's statistically unlikely with TW being 0.02% of the population (or does that also include TM?) and feminists comprising approximately 7%, a lot of whom won't be GC feminists.

Ereshkigal · 21/01/2019 07:53

Who says they are 0.2% of the population? The trans lobby say 1% are trans. And yes, GC feminists are a small group, but women who object to male people in their spaces is a much much bigger group.

Tanith · 21/01/2019 08:30

“However, she did say to send any evidence of trans women being a danger to women and girls, “other than in prisons”.“

Excellent! Perhaps we should do just that - she clearly isn’t aware of Jess Bradley and Aimee Challenor either.

And, excuse me, she might not want to talk about Canada, but we do. It gives ample illustration of just why we are so worried about the risks.
Saying it’s all perfectly safe and there’s nothing to worry about whilst refusing to listen to the evidence to the contrary is disingenious in the extreme.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 21/01/2019 08:37

MM obviously feels that Canada has got it wrong. I'd like to know how she thinks it has failed in Canada and what she is doing to ensure we won't fall I to the same trap.

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