Caring vs snooping - smartapp collects data from devices and sensors of another person's home

[indieshuffle]

Hello all,

I have just checked my email and saw something that I wanted to run by you wise women.

Its from Carers UK telling me about a new product/service from Hive, by Centrica/ British Gas, where data about the carees home use and movements can be viewed remotely on a smartapp on the phone of another person.

Its not cameras, but is things like kettle being on, doors being open etc so involves sensors an smart devices. The blurb says it lets you know if the morning or night-time routine is being followed, but it is very vague on detail (always makes me suspicious)

I can see how in a utopian world that this might give carers some peace of mind if they cannot be there in person (my own gran is very elderly and vulnerable but wants to live alone still and of course we worry), but actually I find the premise a bit alarming given that much of society is largely so ignorant to safeguarding and coercion etc, and my immediate thought was of how this intrusive technology could also be mis-used.

The cared for person has to give consent but how stringently would that be policed? What if there is coercion, or a level of confusion. How would the British Gas engineer know to recognise that or be qualified to know when to refuse to accept a person's consent. Will they be given training? Or will it just need a signature with no consent required in person? The devices could be given as gifts with the recipient knowing what they features they have. I think things like this really ought to have the sign-off of a solicitor to prove the caree has been given independent legal advice.

Its too early for me to call to check what safeguard they have, but even so, safeguarding well how knows what that means nowadays.

What if a determined man wants to spy on his wife/ex and finds a way to get it installed without her knowledge or understanding? When Hive/British Gas have a financial incentive to sign people up and install, and who knows even quotas, are they really going to be independent and circumspect?

I don't know. The whole thing just makes me uneasy. Personally we are refusing a smart meter but as renters we may have no choice of we move house and one is already installed, but also we wont have smart devices on TVs or kettles etc.

Never mind the issue of giving data to Centrica/British Gas. Plus the government now has so much more access to our personal information since that bill was passed so may have access to snoop on our smart devices etc. I know some would write me off as a tin hatter but with this TRA stuff, I cannot ignore just how vulnerable we still are to new ideologies, lack of safeguarding and understanding of coercion and abuse of power etc, lack of critical thinking etc and I'm more cautious than ever.

I think in general, humans are not evolved enough to use this kind of technology responsibly, and I think women are particularly vulnerable to its mis-use.

Plus even limited to its legitimate use, it could get quite annoying for a person to be checked up on just because on morning they haven't put the kettle on yet and their relatives can see that they haven't but actually they are fine. It could actually be quite anxiety provoking in some respects.

I'm not liking this modern world much right now.

We've had various discussions in our family about monitoring apps. because we have a lot of people who need care/support and too few of us who are available to do it.

We've discussed it with the people involved and don't have any because they value their autonomy and feel it's intrusive. I'll admit that this is particularly difficult in the case of a couple of people (separate households) with Alzheimer's in one case and brain metastases in the other as they do have some dangerous behaviours and it is questionable as to whether it's possible to obtain fully-informed consent. But - we honour their decisions.

humans are not evolved enough to use this kind of technology responsibly, and I think women are particularly vulnerable to its mis-use.

I agree with the above - you only have to glance at AIBU to see the mission creep of tracker apps and how they're used to intrude on people's lives.

Thanks R0, and thanks for the share token.

The Internet of Dongs might be used in legal settings as justification for sexual activities and consent as well as being a method of coercive control

Wow, yes I can imagine.

I'm still a bit taken aback that when I get older I will be supposed to have a morning /evening routine that I stick to!

It feels like not only a monitoring system but one that's been designed by my parents to induce guilt that even at 45 i don't get out of bed in the morning unless I really have to...

It's like... I don't know. Alert if someone doesn't stick to their mornung routine. What if they don't have one? Or want one? They have to do it or their kids will worry? I mean that's just odd.

Maybe all the old people will hack it and go and do their own thing.

You don't need a routine! It just sends out an alert if you have a routine that is disrupted! It means I don't need to check what mum is up to all the time, because it will tell me if there is a problem. If no household items are used, the door hasn't opened, and the movement sensors haven't been tripped then I'll get a message. Just like a neighbour ringing me if the milk hasn't been taken in, back in the day.

I think she'd be more independent and more secure. But she won't pay for anything, so I can whistle!

Realistically, what are the dangers? That someone can hack into it, learn her routine and burgle her? That someone can listen in illegally? They'd only hear the washing machine running and Radio 4 on very loud.

I understand they can be subverted by abusive partners, but abusive partners seem to be spying on people already.

Yeeees

Abusive partners are spying on people already

But technology ups the ante no end

Like > south korea where mobile phones MUST make a noise when a pic is taken, by law, due to the explosion of illicit filming of (mainly) women and girls.

Bad people are bad but I think when tools are made available to the general public maybe there does need to be more consideration of how they might be abused / and how to mitigate that abuse.

I still find the routine thing interesting. There is an assumption in there somewhere on the part of the designers... You see this all the time. Humans design things and humans are bad at understanding that others may not be like them. If someone has no routine and they are happy but their children insist... That's benevolent control isn't it. You are not free. You must do XYZ or it will worry your kids...

Also thinking about a family member who is a raging alcoholic always having accidents. In this case a camera would be better.. But that feels more intrustive. It FEELS more intrusive, but really, is it?

These are all good questions that I doubt the tech industry is interested in.

I understand why you would like it for your mum though, Pickle. That's what it's designed for.

Just, the wider context is worth thinking about.

Just coming back to say am sending the email soon, have been a bit busy and stuff and wanted to make sure I covered all the Qs.

pickle My concern is not just for what you might call the very serious abuses, as said there are other ways to do that, but also for the 'smaller' perhaps unintentional abuses.

Eg where a person agrees to the sensors just to stop someone else going on at them perhaps unreasonably or over-anxiously, and then ends up getting panicked phone calls just because they had orange juice rather than tea that morning or opened the door, or they know that if they don't use the kettle it will trigger an alert so they boil the kettle even though they don't want a hot drink. It could get a bit Pavlovian, and someone could feel really smothered or controlled by that.. and maybe they only agreed in the first place to please or appease the carer.

That is a pretty shitty situation to be in.

Many disabled or older people feel beholden to family for their care and not all can speak their minds freely or have the energy to resist a forthright relative.

As peking said this becomes all about treating the carer, but who speaks up for the vulnerable person. Who can cancel the agreement even? What about the "oh but we've paid for it now" blackmail. Its not straightforward.

I have an over anxious relative who can get quite out of hand, so what I have suggested is not an unlikely scenario unfortunately.

So I will ask about the safeguards and report back when I hear something.

I don't even know what to say about internet enabled sex toys :(

The tracking stuff is so scary. Sometimes I think fairly seriously about carrying around one of those bug scanner things they use on TV spy shows.

I have an over anxious relative who can get quite out of hand

This is high on my list of what, in practice, can go wrong.

Ironically, I'm not really well enough to write all I'd like on this. I said I didn't have time: what I really meant was, I don't have enough brain.

And I don't think talking about primarily in terms of "bad people" is helpful. Most anxious people don't think of themselves as bad people, but their urges to know about and control those around them can be seriously deleterious to their nearest and dearest. MN is chockers with examples.

Ironic because I've considered this technology for keeping me safe, as well as for my elderly relative.

The list of reasons I haven't gone for it is long, but they include the fact there is no one I would trust not to gossip about my data, but also trust not to become so anxious they become a burden to me.

I've already had the experience of a previously-not-very-anxious person become anxious because I was ill, and it manifest in a desire to know where I was and want to come with me or be reported to if I left the house. This person did very little to help me practically: it was all about treating their anxiety. Eventually I realised it was in fact feeding their anxiety.

Sorry, didn't read your post properly first, indieshuffle.

Yes, what you said.

100% agree peking. 100%. And feeding the anxiety, yes.

Also I totally feel your pain with the run out of brain thing

When I said I had been busy, its true I have, but also have had not enough brain :(

At least we know what we mean here and I'll badger Carers UK about it. Nite for now x

Interesting perspectives. Thank you.

I do think this is a really good thread and case in point around perspectives.

Everyone mainly comes at things from their own POV - situation / experence and sees either positives / negatives / neutral around that perspective. And while we can try and empathise, it's hard and sometimes impossible when things are not in our experience at all.

This is a big issue in tech world as it's overwhelmingly male dominated > see stuff around all the "assistants", well, being female in the first place, and then being able to respond to male type emergencies (eg. heart attack) but not female type ones (eg. rape).

So in this situation, my guess is that the tech is being designed / driven by the people who are wanting to do the checking / or are guessing what people who want to do the checking might want. They are youngish people putting themselves in the shoes of the carers.

Have they even thought to ask any carees what they want? What would help them? etc

I have worked in an industry providing solutions to people with diffiuclties / in difficult times and the arrogance of the people in the industry in just assuming they knew what people wanted / needed without really asking was crazy >> they thought they knew best, and the really interesting thing was they didn't even realise they were doing it... That's the privilege thing at work, that intersectionality tried to flag but has been subverted.