Queueing for toilets

[ExitThisWay]

So I know a lot has been written here about women’s toilets - but I’ve been thinking specifically about when females have to queue for a significantly longer time than males to use a toilet provision.

This happens to me frequently. At days out. Shopping centres. Museums, theatres / venues. Even showering my kids after swimming lessons. It Seems the norm is women queue, men don’t. Although I’m unable to go into the men’s whilst I’m queueing to see if similar is happening there, I don’t see people queuing up out the doors etc. Im also fed up of it being so busy in cramped toilets that with our buggies and bags and coats - we end up jostling for space. Having to squeeze past people to use hand driers etc.

So I’ve started writing / emailing everytime it happens. Just pointing out to organisations and service providers, that is indirect sex discrimination, and asking the service provider what action they will take to rectify it - as, you know, sex discrimination ( direct or indirect ) is illegal.

& I Just wanted to share as it not a really really difficult thing to do. Quick email and that’s it. Maybe reply back when they say ‘sorry we were busy at that time’ ( which one place did and I replied - being busy doesn’t let you act against the law)

Anyway. I thought if a few people ( or loads of people) did this, then maybe things would change. Providers would take notice.

And I know this isn’t a huge issue.
But the little things stack up.
My kids are little. And everytime they are queueing, and see the males fly in and out. It says something to them. That it’s ok to waste our time and not men’s . It’s ok for Male to be default. And that we must queue up, and be reminded of our place. Every single time.

If you manage one e mail / letter / phone call/ ask to see the manager about this. Then thanks. I appreciate it.

I had presumed that 'equal provision' is taken by people in charge of buildings to mean 'equal floor space' which obviously with urinals means more 'units' for men.

Is this true? Can anyone point me to the any legislation or guidance?

Part of the issue to is persuading men to take their children (especially boys) to the toilets and/or just take care of children more generally.

I know that there are strict planning regs for amounts of toilets and urinals etc. And I did go down a bit of a rabbit hole trying to get my head round it - and then I thought it’s really not that complicated. Whether places meet planning regs or guidelines or not, or if planning regs are at fault, if women are queueing and men aren’t , then that’s indirect discrimination, and service providers should do something about it.

And yes I absolutely agree, if more men took their kids to toilets etc it wouldn’t be an issue. But it seems clear to me that If i’m at a type of place where the majority of kids are their with their mums / females care givers, then we are going to need more toilets to accommodate this.

Last day trip I did there were 4 women using the toilet with about 3 kids each. & one man and one child in the men’s. - now these women and myself were on day trips without men -( it was a non bank holiday over xmas when people were back in work but schools weren’t back. So the option of men taking kids to toilet wasn't there. - and at places like swimming lessons when the womens changing room is busting to full and we all queue for ages for our kids to use the shower - the men’s is much emptier because it is 80-85% women taking their kids to after school swimming lessons - for whatever reason.
All this is service providers indirectly discriminating against us. Because we are getting a worse deal than men, just because we are women.

The standards are here

www.abtt.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/160429-TECHNICAL-STANDARDS-2015-G1-Sanitary-Accommodation-C-ABTT+CIEH+DSA+IOL.pdf

So for a 2000 seat theatre:

(deemed to be)
1200 women with 49 WCs, 26 wash basins
800 men with 17 urinals & 5 WCs, 10 wash basins

I am not exactly sure how the floor space works out save that a cubicle is at least 0.85m x 1.5m, you will need floor space between basins & cubicles, etc., however clearly women's toilets need to occupy at least twice the area of men.

I agree that cubical could be bigger to accommodate push chairs and toddlers.
However, in my experience lots of women don't cheack if all the toilets are in use before starting to que.

At the panto at Christmas I went to the loo, 15ish waiting, so I asked, ' has anyone tried all the doors?', no one had.
5 of the toilets were empty.

So OP would you be for venues introducing female urinals as a solution? Ultimately this is a big part of the reason the men's queue moves quicker.
From talking to people, men wanting to use the cubicles experience similar issues, as there is less of them.

OP I'm not sure I get most of your arguments...Because the after school swimming class has more women with kids than men they should base the entire facilities based on this one hour class? This isn't discriminating against you, some facilities will be busier depending on what's on and who's attending. Sometimes the men's will be busier than the women's?

ExitThisWay good idea, I'll try and send an email when it happens next. I've recently noticed I need to use the loo way more often than my husband, so that increases the pressure on female toilets. I guess he'll get there when his prostate starts playing up.

I'd go to the dr about the frequency with which I need to wee but since I had a glucose test recently and know it's not diabetes the dr will put down to menopause as that's the stock answer from them at the moment

Just detracting from the main issue, which clearly is an issue, and I know it's not helping in any sense to stop the problem, but if there's a queue I usually identify as a man and go in the mens... I know not everyone is comfortable doing that, but at the last gig I was at I recruited 2 other women (sorry, transmen! ) to do it too...

I've done that too User7777, though only somewhere I suspected there wouldn't be anyone in the men's), and there wasn't).

I've been thinking about the paucity of toilets for women too OP and thinking we should do something to try to improve things, so thanks for actually doing something and inspiring us. I will also start writing.

Lichtie - it’s not a one hour class. It’s 5 days a week- lessons running from 3.30pm - 7pm and saturdays lessons from 8am - mid day. I absolutely think if women ( or children there with female care givers) are having to queue much longer than men, or those children whose dads have taken them, then yes, that is indirect sex discrimination. I’m definitely not saying I or other people shouldn’t have to queue for things, but if only women are queueing and men aren’t, then there is a problem.

And nope. I don’t want female urinals. And these aren’t the answer - Our biology means we need to sit.

Thanks again to all who are joining me in bringing this to service providers attention. That’s brilliant.

ExitThisWay - I can't say I agree with it being discrimination. The services are available to all. If they were to provide an imbalance of facilities wouldn't that be discrimination?
And no our biology doesn't mean we need to sit, otherwise female urinals wouldn't be possible and wouldn't exist. Not liking them is different, wouldn't be a fan of them myself, but solves a problem.

Ok I'm sure I'm going to regret asking this but female urinals? How do they work?

I had a look at the standards (or a website that had a summary) and it seemed to say ‘per 1000 men’ per 1000 women (for example). And the standard is that women should have more cubicles per 1000 than men do. So the problem is maybe whatever place it is has their estimates of customers wrong. If it is a public body would a FOI be available?

I'm sure I read something about new major buildings (eg Wembley Stadium) having to take into account that women need more loos as they take longer.... I'm off to Google it.

Mr Darcy, from my time standing in queues at gigs/sports it's clear the reason men are so quick is that they don't wash their hands. They pee and go.

Thing about female urinals, even if we could aim, they would be useless for a hater of the month.

Possibly men take less time because of the 40 minute shits they take at home according to multiple threads

Quarter

So with you. I was at a sporting event in France and stood queuing for ages for the loos whilst watching large numbers of men just walk in and out of the male loos. Some looked over at the queuing women - a few perhaps a little sheepish - who knows. I mentioned it to a few women round me and they just looked at me as though having to endlessly queue had never crossed their minds - or they perhaps just couldn’t understand me.

It’s the same at airports, theatres etc - fucking infuriates me. I imagine most architects are men. Actually started a thread on this in AIBU years ago and got roasted for being reactionary and too touchy 🧐

How, in the name of all holy fuck, does a female urinal even work? What? One will still have to undress and bare the bottom having no appendage to wield outside of one's clothing , surely?

And both men and woman are shite at checking cubicle doors. As a veteran of many mixed sex portaloo serviced running events I can vouch for this. Have rampaged along the line of cubicals opening doors for people many a time. Of course the blokes all just go and pee against a tree if there's a big queue. Nice.

I once turned a corner on a country lane to find a man stood facing me peeing in the middle of the goddamn road! Why? At least face a tree. I told him to put his male privilege away. Lol.

I applaud your efforts OP. I don't go out enough any more to be affected by this but it is blinking annoying that no solution has been reached on this issue.

I once turned a corner on a country lane to find a man stood facing me peeing in the middle of the goddamn road!

On my local running route, that I frequently run alone in the very early morning, there's well-worn path and a woods path. I always use the woods path. Some bastard decided one morning, running in front of me, that he'd nip down the woods path to pee. Of course that's my route so bleaugh. Thing is there's these hazel baffles very nearby that he could have ducked behind. But he didn't. Fucking gross.

I assume it's part of the utterly confusing concept men seem to have that everyone is dying to see their cock.

We went to the RHS show at Tatton Park this summer. They'd got the banks of portaloos in a ratio of, I think, 3F to 1M. No queues for anyone!

I guess at that sort of event they can estimate the likely ratio of attendees and make appropriate provision more easily than a fixed venue, but still, it was pleasing they had got it right.

But it shouldn't have been noteworthy!

Agree op. As a young woman, I couldn't understand what I now think were peri menopausal women taking bags of stuff into the loo. Bags of wipes and towels and all sorts. Now I do. Add people with bum issues. If 25% of menstrual age women are on their period at any given time then it takes time and privacy to sort yourself out.