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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

17yo wants £5k for egg freezing

48 replies

QuietContraryMary · 10/01/2019 12:33

FTM teen is begging for internet donations

www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/ive-always-wanted-family-transgender-2411871

Said teen has a girlfriend but wants own eggs saved so they can be implanted in a surrogate at some point in the future.

Charlie says

"I may have been born with a biologically female body, but my brain is a boy."

In support of this is a photo playing football on the beach aged 11 wearing shorts, because only boys are allowed to wear shorts, obvs.

OP posts:
NotTryingHardEnough · 10/01/2019 14:46

The more I see of these stories the more I despair.

'Always preferred to dress as a boy' captioning a perfectly normal picture of an 11-year-old girl on a beach in shorts and a tee-shirt. Ye gods.

I still haven't got over the trans couple (FTM and MTF) going through laborious hoops to have a baby and being extravagantly praised for their stunning bravery. With nobody mentioning the obvious elephant in the room.

When will this madness end?

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:47

NHS announcement about funding fertility treatments for transgender people. (follows protocol for people diagnosed with cancer)
This will be especially relevent to young females who are intending to start cross sex hormones.

BBC segment New Year's Eve:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3465629-the-bbc-have-just-peak-transed-the-nation

ILuvBirdsEye · 10/01/2019 14:47

Which is why Charlie is wanting to go to the great expense to implant Olivia with Charlie's own fertilised eggs. That would mean that Olivia is not a legal parent to any child that is born after that process.

Gosh, that's so messed up. So Olivia is expected to not want her own bio children and instead carry Charlie and sperm donors child....

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:49

I still haven't got over the trans couple (FTM and MTF) going through laborious hoops to have a baby and being extravagantly praised for their stunning bravery. With nobody mentioning the obvious elephant in the room.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3474980-British-Man-Who-Fell-Pregnant-Warns-Other-Males-That-Giving-Birth-Is-Really-Hard

BBC3 January 2017
'Pregnant Dad: Giving Birth As A Transgender Man | Sex Map of Britain'

flamingofridays · 10/01/2019 14:55

I can understand desperately wanting children, but desperately wanting biological children seems odd to me, especially when you know you wont be able to carry your baby yourself.

I understand women (who live as women) wanting to carry their own baby. I get that.

But I cant understand a desperate need for a biological child without the growing it bit involved.

for me, pre ds, I was desperate to have children. Now, in my case it was biological, it was quick and I was very lucky. Had it not have been, I genuinely think you could have placed any baby in my arms and I would have loved it like I do DS. Now obviously I cannot say that for certain but it wasn't the "growing my own" as such that mattered to me.

Had it been biologically related to DP and not to me, again I wouldn't have cared.

I think if Charlie is so desperate for children, he needs to consider the fact that his girlfriend has(I assume) a fully working reproductive system of which would be useful in this situation.

If he loves her, then why wouldn't he love a child that was biologically hers?

Its only the same if two women have a baby together, it can only biologically be one mothers, you're not telling me that the other mother loves it any less.

ExplodedPeach · 10/01/2019 15:17

to be fair @flamingofridays, that's a very individual decision and something plenty of heterosexual couples with fertility issues feel strongly about too. Having a child that is biologically descended from you is something that's massively important to a lot of people, even if it isn't necessarily important to you.

littlbrowndog · 10/01/2019 15:24

Erm that person is 17
17
Can’t even buy drink or fags legally
And is thinking that their brain is in wrong body
I mean 17. Most ppl can b3 bonkers at 17.

There’s a clear example of that in this case
Bonkers

flamingofridays · 10/01/2019 15:37

I know it is peach

but if you're biologically and physically able to have your own baby naturally, but you're willing to sterilise yourself, and then freeze your eggs reducing your chances by a lot (I imagine)

you cant be that desperate to have a biological child, can you?

Yabbers · 10/01/2019 16:07

Presumably if the 17 year old was having this done because they were about to be made infertile because of chemo treatment, that would be ok?

HerFemaleness · 10/01/2019 16:20

Presumably if the 17 year old was having this done because they were about to be made infertile because of chemo treatment, that would be ok?

I hope you're not about to make a false equivlence between somebody suffering from a life threatening illness like cancer, and somebody who has a belief that somehow they have a male brain in a female body.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 16:31

Yabbers

This is the rationale that has been used to secure the infertity protocol that is intended be available to those girls and women diagnosed with cancer and whose treatment (eg gyny cancer requiring surgical removal of ovaries etc and / or chemotherapy).

The infertility protocol for cancer patients is not followed universally due to postcode lottery, the circumstances around time of diagnosis, and sex-based difference in approach is previlent.

It's not a comparable situation in so many ways.

If (& it is a big if) a person diagnosed with cancer has a referral to fertility services, for females, there is often a critical time issue. Starting a process of egg harvesting may require delay of treatment. Also for some cancers, starting the required hormone treatments requires a consideration of risk. Some cancers are hormone receptive. The person diagnosed is also in a state of trauma about their future.
The consequences of all of these factors will likely mean that though there is a protocol and possiblity for egg harvesting and storage, it would likely be a small percentage of females diagnosed with cancer who go ahead.
Similarly, one has to consider the future reality for those diagnosed with cancer who have stored eggs in terms of whether they choose or are able to go ahead in the future with attempts to then have a child whether through IVF or surrogacy.

There are many differences to the circumstances.

What is clear though is that of all of the patient-led lobby groups seeking parity or improved medical treatments, the transgender lobby stands head and shoulders above all others in terms of effectiveness.

(I've c&p so capitals are from text.)
Campaign launched last year by Becki McGuiness 'Cancer & Fertility UK':

"Thankfully I have now been in remission for 8 years but have to live with life long side effects. Early menopause is a hard one to deal with especially as the Gynecologist I had to see for HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) said they could have helped me, if only I had been originally sent to see her.

If only the hospital had a holistic approach for cancer patients.

I am officially launching a campaign for the awareness on #Cancer and #Fertility for all cancer patients called “The Vicious Cycle Campaign” and I’m also using the hashtag 💔 #HiddenHeartache 💔 because it’s something painful that’s hidden in society especially if you’re young and infertile. I want to raise awareness so women know the options available (as it takes longer to save women’s eggs and men usually get their fertility preserved, as it’s quicker) and asking to see a fertility specialist. I would prefer if all oncologists brought up the subject with every patient because for some patients it’s so traumatic finding out they have cancer that they might not even be thinking clearly enough or may forget to even ask about fertility and that’s why I believe they shouldn’t be putting this pressure on the patient to ask because they have so much to worry about already

This is something I am really passionate about. I know it can vary throughout the UK for different women and I want my campaign to make sure there’s equal opportunities for all women and men regardless who their doctor is or area they live in.

I want the protocol to be the same for everyone in the UK rather than being hit and miss for patients or a postcode lottery."

"A STUDY BY ST MARY’S HOSPITAL IN MANCHESTER SAYS AROUND HALF OF FEMALE CANCER PATIENTS AGED 15 TO 39 — ROUGHLY 4,000 A YEAR — ARE INFERTILE AFTER THEIR TREATMENT.
RESEARCHERS ESTIMATE THAT AROUND HALF WOULD VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE NOT TO USE FERTILITY PRESERVATION AND HALF WOULD WANT IT.

FREEZING EGGS, OVARIAN TISSUE OR AN EMBRYO CREATED WITH A PARTNER’S SPERM ACTS AS AN INSURANCE POLICY WHICH MAY GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO START A FAMILY LATER USING IVF.
BUT IN 2014 ONLY 154 WOMEN HAD THEIR EGGS FROZEN — LESS THAN 4 PER CENT OF THE 4,000 WHO WERE LEFT INFERTILE.
AND A FURTHER SURVEY FOUND THAT ONLY A THIRD OF THE WOMEN WHO DID HAVE TREATMENT GOT IT ON THE NHS
THE REST ARE LIKELY TO HAVE PAID THOUSANDS OF POUNDS PRIVATELY FOR THE CHANCE TO BE A MOTHER.
STUDY AUTHOR DR YAZAN ABDALLAH OF THE DEPARTMENT OF REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S SAID: ‘GETTING CANCER IS A MISFORTUNE, NOT A CHOICE, AND SO FERTILITY PRESERVATION MUST BE AVAILABLE ON THE NHS. THERE IS A BIG OPPORTUNITY TO INFORM AND EMPOWER WOMEN — NOT ASK THEM TO PAY... continues

THE RESEARCH, PRESENTED TO A BRITISH FERTILITY SOCIETY CONFERENCE IN EDINBURGH LAST WEEK AND DUE TO BE PUBLISHED IN THE JOURNAL HUMAN FERTILITY, SAYS THAT 77 PER CENT OF NHS FERTILITY CENTRES JUDGE CANCER PATIENTS ON THE STANDARD CRITERIA, DESPITE NICE’S GUIDANCE.
IT SAYS ANOTHER FACTOR IS THAT SOME PATIENTS OR THEIR DOCTORS MAY BE NERVOUS ABOUT DELAYING THE START OF CANCER TREATMENT UNTIL EGGS CAN BE HARVESTED. BUT THE AUTHORS SAY THIS CAN TAKE AS LITTLE AS 12 DAYS IF HORMONES ARE INJECTED TO STIMULATE OVULATION.
THE RESEARCH, WHICH HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY CONSULTANT DR RAJ MATHUR, ALSO SHOWS A POSSIBLE POSTCODE LOTTERY FOR FUNDING, WITH LONDON AND THE NORTH-WEST OVER-REPRESENTED AMONG THE 154 WHO HAD TREATMENT.
DR CHERYL FITZGERALD, CONSULTANT IN REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S, SAID: ‘THERE IS A HUGE INEQUITY. MEN HAVING FERTILITY-DAMAGING TREATMENT ARE AUTOMATICALLY REFERRED TO SPERM BANKING.
‘FOR WOMEN, BECAUSE EGG FREEZING USED TO BE LESS SUCCESSFUL AND BECAUSE IT’S A MORE INVASIVE AND TIME-CONSUMING PROCESS, IT’S NOT AUTOMATIC.
‘THE EMPHASIS HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN ON CURING CANCER, BUT WITH SO MANY PEOPLE SURVIVING CANCER, WE NEED TO LOOK AT IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE AFTER TREATMENT, INCLUDING THE CHANCE TO HAVE A FAMILY.’ ”

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 16:32

apologoes, link to information above:
cancerandfertility.co.uk/about/

teawamutu · 10/01/2019 16:38

Only £90 pledged.

flamingofridays · 10/01/2019 16:42

yabbers im pretty sure you don't choose to get cancer and therefore have to have chemo. That is an entirely different situation.

someone having chemo would be (probably) a life or death situation, not a baby or sex change situation.

WombOfOnesOwn · 10/01/2019 16:43

People don't even realize that egg freezing is much, much less likely to be successful and result in a live birth than embryo freezing.

These girls will be horrified when they've traded away the ability to become pregnant based on a promise of future fertility, only to discover that there's about a 10% chance they'll get pregnant from a cycle.

WhereYouLeftIt · 10/01/2019 16:46

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45095961

Success rate of 27% for egg freezing. So I'd have to agree that they can't be that desperate to want their own biological children, if their going to quarter their chance of that ever happening.

TBH, I wonder if the idea of egg-freezing goes hand in hand with the desire to transition in this person's case. Both are 'technical' fixes to the messiness of real life Sad.

Theimpossiblegirl · 10/01/2019 16:53

Bath and Bristol are not in Somerset. Just because it's not London doesn't mean it's all one place. These stories are entirely unconnected.

Popchyk · 10/01/2019 17:03

Bath is in Somerset.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 17:08

People don't even realize that egg freezing is much, much less likely to be successful and result in a live birth than embryo freezing.

The young people concerned seem naive about many things.
Whether that's 'O I'll just adopt', 'Science will soon mean uterus transplants will be possible for transwoman' or 'O I'll use a surrogate'

What is the case though is that young females aged 16-20 will likely have a higher success rate of egg harvesting and probably successful fertilisation/ live birth rates than the general statistics which will include females who are older or have had other infertility issues.

Theimpossiblegirl · 10/01/2019 17:10

Oops, I stand corrected. :) Still unconnected though.

QuietContraryMary · 10/01/2019 17:11

I had a look at Charlie's mum's FB. It seems mum is supportive of the transition. There's not too many recent photos but all those from around 10/11/12 are just a normal looking girl with shoulder-length hair & comfortable (pink, even!) clothes.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 17:21

Guardian article, 'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
[Stephanie] Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

The need to understand better why so many more teenage girls are seeking to modify their bodies has been recognised by both GIDS and the government.
Increasing numbers of parents and young females are sharing their experiences about what has been termed ROGD.

The lobby groups, organisations and charities who are driving expectations and affirming these vulnerable young females are not considering the complex factors involved.

Voice0fReason · 10/01/2019 23:23

This worries me so much. Far too young to make life-changing decisions like this and a lack of understanding of the whole process from egg collection, storage, viability, implantation and legalities.

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