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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Alex Hepburn rape trial

22 replies

QuentinWinters · 08/01/2019 11:05

This cricketer had sex with a woman as part of a WhatsApp challenge with his friends. She was asleep in his house, after having sex with one of his house mates. She claims he raped her while asleep, he claims she woke up and enthusiastically consented.
I'm following with interest because this case bears striking parallels with others like the Ulster players, Ched Evans and the Sam Aboghe trial.

Please be careful in your comments because the trial is live so the thread will get deleted if there is speculation about Alex's innocence.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-hereford-worcester-46788572?__twitter_impression=true

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arranbubonicplague · 08/01/2019 11:47

WhatsApp challenge with his friends

This is a ghastly insight into the state of mind of a select niche of very privileged men - at what point will other men start to address the widespread harm of toxic masculinity and the cultural support for it?

GrandmaSteglitszch · 08/01/2019 12:00

"She told jurors a member of the public dialled 999 after finding the woman, who cannot be identified, "distressed and crying" in the street in April 2017."

That is not what you do if you have been having consensual sex.

ChattyLion · 08/01/2019 12:15

Flowers for this woman. I believe her.

QuentinWinters · 08/01/2019 14:21

www.droitwichadvertiser.co.uk/news/worcester_news/17340225.woman-woke-up-to-worcestershire-cricketer-alex-hepburn-raping-her/?ref=rss

Yeurch.
Looks like I got it wrong in the OP. She was awake but thought he was the man she went home with for consensual sex. So very similar to the Sam Obeghe case
www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/12/university-student-cleared-of-raping-woman-who-thought-she-was-s/amp/

There does really need to be a reckless penetration crime. It is shocking that a man's view of whether he thought he had consent has more weight than whether the woman actually consented (and also makes it very easy for rapists, because how do you disprove a thought?)

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Badgerthebodger · 08/01/2019 14:35

Another sports player. It really doesn’t paint an encouraging picture of the attitudes of top-level sportsmen does it? In fact, I would go so far as to say there is a lot which is depressingly familiar about this case. The disgusting attitude towards women. The WhatsApp chats. I think there needs to be a complete attitude change in men’s sports and I think teams ought to crack down on this behaviour. There is quite obviously a revolting “lad” culture in too many teams, where these young men carry on the horrible behaviour learned at college and university and wherever else they have been allowed to run amok.

If he is found guilty, I hope there are repercussions in terms of his contract with that team. They might also want to take a close look at the sort of culture they are fostering.

MoltenLasagne · 08/01/2019 14:37

part of a WhatsApp challenge with his friends

That this is normalised amongst this group of friends is appalling. What drives these men to bond over such horrid behaviour? I remember asking the same question after the group rape of the goat in India - it appears the probability of men raping increases by spending time with other men.

arranbubonicplague · 08/01/2019 14:48

Prof. Catharine McKinnon: Rape Redefined:

(Scroll right down to see the piece) McKinnon has a useful perspective on the issue of consent and why it is out of step with rape and assault laws. It's mostly about US law but mentions the UK in various sections and the contentious nature of consent.

6. Consent definitions – in which the prosecution has to prove nonconsent – require a woman be believed concerning a sexual fact that is by its nature subjective. This is why it puts the victim on trial. Essentially, it attributes victimization to the victimized. It makes the case be about what she was thinking, or what he thought she was thinking, rather than about what he did. It makes rape occur in someone’s mind, not by his body on her body.

7. It is therefore no surprise that, in legal application, consent has been found when women are married, drunk or drugged, repeatedly said no, were asleep, comatose, just seen to be raped by several other men, threatened with deportation or false criminal charges or loss of her job. In legal operation, consent to sex is routinely found in situations of despairing acquiescence, frozen fright, terror, absence of realistic options, socially situated vulnerability, and even death. Prostituted sex is regarded as consensual because it is paid. All this is what consent actually means legally, not mistakes in what it legally means.

The often accompanying standard of mistaken belief in consent means that if the accused is found to have believed she consented, whether she did or not, it is not rape. In societies saturated with pornography, a lead pipe over the head can sincerely be believed to produce consent to sex. Further no surprise that “rough sex” is such an increasingly effective consent defense.

In other words, consent is often found in situations where considerable force was used, building into law the misogynistic assumption that women want to be forced into sex. This is the real meaning of requiring a showing of both force and nonconsent, as prevails in US state laws. The same assumptions tend to be attributed to a gay man when he claims another man raped him. He is feminized, reduced on a gendered basis.

If sex occurred, her consent is essentially presumed on the most minimal of acquaintance between the parties; the survivor has to disprove it. Socially speaking, if sex happened, or if a woman had ever had sex before, especially with the accused, consent is effectively assumed. She has to disprove it. It’s a social burden of proof women enter the law burdened by. Consent in law is consistent with economic, psychological, and hierarchical threats, so long as physical injury or life are not threatened (for which purpose rape itself is generally not considered a physical injury).
...
8. Consent as a concept was never designed to apply between two people in civil society. It was given its current meaning in Western liberal philosophy, hence Western law, as the basis for legitimizing the obligation to obey the laws of the state. Even as a fiction.. it never envisioned equal parties. It exists to rationalize the exercise of dominant power (ie the state) over its subordinates (the governed). This is what it is for. Applied to sex, he is the government, she is the governed. Its purpose is to attribute and justify the requisite obedience of the powerless to the rule of the powerful. It is about compliance.

madamegandhi.blog/2014/10/28/sex-equality-with-professor-catharine-mackinnon/

Formal version of the Malmo address complete with references:

harvardlpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/10.2_6_MacKinnon.pdf

QuentinWinters · 08/01/2019 22:20

Apparently the defence asked whether she noticed any difference in the size of genitals as Mr Clarke has a large penis
www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/752289/alex-hepburn-rape-trial-joe-clarke-cricket-worcester-latest/amp
Shock
Wtf? How on earth is that relevant to anything?
I don't understand how some of this questioning is allowed. How humiliating for her.

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lizzie1970a · 09/01/2019 20:31

I believe her. There was the case last year I think of the Irish rugby players - again degrading Whatsapp messages about women. Just vile people. The mentality shocks me. It was a competition with the cricketers to sleep with the most women. I can't believe his girlfriend is standing by him, or he's managed to get one since. I think the prosecutor Miranda Moore sounds like she's doing a good job from some of the things she's saying. More I'd like to say obviously. Hoping it's a guilty verdict.

Voice0fReason · 09/01/2019 21:52

This is horrific and I absolutely believe her.
He didn't seek consent - her consent was irrelevant to him. He wanted sex and he took it. That makes him a rapist.

QuentinWinters · 10/01/2019 19:27

So the jury is out. Let's see what they say .

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Whisky2014 · 10/01/2019 19:30

I believe her. He even admitted when she turned around she asked where joe was. That rught there signals the fact she had no clue it was the other guy havung sex with her.

And what the fuck is his girlfriend doing supporting him?

AntiSocialInjusticePacifist · 10/01/2019 19:41

Oh bugger I like Cricket and privately like to think cricketers are a better class of sportsman. Utter folly on my part looks like! Poor woman, and I hope she gets justice, and all the support she needs. This was not her fault.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 10/01/2019 20:41

Heeley QC, defending, said: "Clarke has a large penis – did you not notice any difference in the penises?
I mean wtf? But surely, if they’re asking and expecting this to be ‘evidence’, then they’ve measured both of them and will be submitting the verified measurements to the judge and jury, right? No? FFS.

QuentinWinters · 11/01/2019 18:27

So no verdict and the jury has been discharged as they couldn't agree.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-hereford-worcester-46828643

Poor woman having the thought of another trial hanging over her

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WeeBisom · 11/01/2019 23:03

His story is just incredible, and I can't believe some of the jurors bought it. So on the night in question he just so happened to have an arrangement with his flatmate to sleep in his flatmate's bedroom (why? and what a coincidence it was on this night!) He goes into the dark room, hops into bed, and then notices a woman is in the bed . And his immediate action is to start having sex with her, and she was totally into it (apparently). What? Who on earth has sex with a random person that happens to be in their bed? To top it off, there's all these text messages which establish that him and his friend were in a competition to have sex with as many women as possible, he jokes about rape, and him and his friend 'shared' women and had threesomes previously. And yet some people still believed his tale!

This is why rape trials are such a joke - men can make up the most implausible, stupid stories and get away with it. I agree with one of the posters who said there should be a reckless element to rape - it's beyond belief that he just started having sex with a complete stranger without even asking her name, let alone establishing if she was consenting to sex with HIM in particular.

ChattyLion · 14/01/2019 07:22

Thanks for updating Quentin and agree with you Bisom. The idea that this ridiculous yarn is a defence for either man is laughable were it not so insulting. The recklessness should extend to both men IMO.

if a woman consents to sex once with a man, that doesn’t mean that after that one time he can immediately just start to penetrate her body again, or as many times as he likes without asking her and ensuring he had her consent. Sad

Oh and the idea that supermacho rape-joking type of men who have attitudes to women like these men have been shown to do, would also arrange or agree to share their beds with another men in their group just for sleeping in as mates... That is ludicrous. Never in a million years. They’d be way too scared their other mates would think they were gay to do that.

Flowers to her.

failingatlife · 14/01/2019 08:17

This is awful. The CPS have 2 weeks to decide if there will be a retrial. He's going to get away with this isn't he? Angry

OrchidInTheSun · 14/01/2019 08:53

D you think some people just can't believe that some men can behave so revoltingly? Or is it because he's good looking and a pro sportsman?

I'm just trying to get my head around why the jury couldn't reach a verdict

QuentinWinters · 14/01/2019 10:46

I think for some jurors it literally hinges on is it possible the man thought he had consent? And then they apply "beyond all reasonable doubt" to that bit. Rather than what the law actually says which is "reasonable belief in consent". In a case like this, I'm not sure how it's reasonable for a man to believe a woman consented.
Maybe the law needs tightening up because "reasonable" is quite vague.

This is also relevant
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/06/quarter-of-adults-think-marital-sex-without-consent-is-not-uk-survey-finds?CMP=fb_gu

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failingatlife · 14/01/2019 15:20

orchid I have wondered the same. But while they can't believe a man could behave like that people seem to believe that many, many women are willing to lie about rape despite how rape victims are treated. Seems back to front to me!

sprot · 14/01/2019 15:34

Two sides to every story and only the two involved know the truth

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