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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When politicians are shouted at - welcome to our world

47 replies

theOtherPamAyres · 08/01/2019 10:11

Ever since the media chose to interview politicians in the open air, outside Parliament, it has become a national sport to shout obscenities, show your backside to the nation and make rude gestures behind them.

The answer, of course, is to use a studio rather than expose politicians to the worst kind of behaviour from opponents.

Anna Soubry MP was called a Fascist and a Nazi and thinks that the police ought to have arrested the loud mouths. There is a lot of righteous indignation on Twitter - 'no place for such behaviour in our democracy', says Yvette Cooper MP.

Quite right. It is abominable that anyone should face violent language and slurs. But no-one, including women MPs, says anything when it happens to ordinary women.

I'm sorry that you, Anna Soubry (and Owen Jones and Jacob Rees Mogg) are experiencing such barracking. You may not have noticed but there are a lot of us who are routinely abused, slurred, smeared, doxxed, assaulted and subject to vexatious and false claims of hate crimes, in the real world. I would think more of politicians if they could see the wider picture rather than notice appalling tactics only when it used against themselves.

OP posts:
PersonaNonGarter · 08/01/2019 22:01

Gronky, what does that mean? That we should all be throwing ourselves under horses?

Gronky · 08/01/2019 22:14

That we should all be throwing ourselves under horses

I wouldn't specifically advocate that any more than I'd advocate imitating the arsons and bombings that Suffragettes also carried out. What I mean is that even their non violent protests could hardly have been regarded as civil or non-abusive by the standards of the time.

R0wantrees · 08/01/2019 22:18

What I mean is that even their non violent protests could hardly have been regarded as civil or non-abusive by the standards of the time.'

I agree, the way women seeking the vote were treated was very abusive and uncivil.

Gronky · 08/01/2019 22:40

I agree, the way women seeking the vote were treated was very abusive and uncivil.

Certainly, there was a lack of civility on all sides. Call it personal interest, but I'm not inclined to say that signifies that all sides were equally right or wrong but it's worth remembering what civil disobedience achieved for women and worth considering that condemning what is, by comparison, an extremely mild (albeit quite unpleasant) chant by a protest group as something that shouldn't be permitted has the potential to lead to a rather dangerous outcome for civil liberties.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 23:29

“tellmewhenthespaceshiplands

Whilst I agree that it's not on to call someone a Nazi I'm not sure it's illegal? (sure someone will soon correct me if I'm wrong) so not really sure where this can go.“

No but it can be reasonably interpreted as a breach of the peace or a public order offense and even harassment if you’re following someone down the street and shouting it in their face. Like that lot were m.youtube.com/watch?v=1RqAD8B39vA

Obviously whether the police will interpret it that way or not will depend upon who you are and who is doing the shouting. Impartial policing was abandoned during the Blair government.

I imagine these people won’t get away with what they did because they are believed to be far right and Anna Soubry is part of the liberal establishment. But if it were a left wing mob doing this to Tommy Robinson for example the press would be reporting it as brave anti fascists taking on a thug who doesn’t deserve the same human rights as the rest of us and the police wouldn’t be looking into it.

In short how the law will be interpreted depends on the politics and status of those involved.

userschmoozer · 08/01/2019 23:34

Women can't even get the police to deal with the bomb threats. They had a suspect, that was the last we heard.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 23:50

“I would think more of politicians if they could see the wider picture rather than notice appalling tactics only when it used against themselves.“

With all due respect I’d say the samething about feminists. I remember back in the day before the trans movement really took off when they were calling for people to be sacked because they found an opinion someone expressed sexist or offensive. Not all feminists behaved like this but to be sure many did.

It’s a funny old world. I’m wondering if the far right are going to start pressuring venues to cancel left wing and Labour Party events next....

R0wantrees · 09/01/2019 05:40
Hmm
pomobrokemypogo · 09/01/2019 07:02

Whilst true abuse and intimidation is obviously wrong, and abusing women and women MPs is a particularly awful problem, I don't think MPs should be totally shielded from the general public outside Parliament. Police should be there to stop behaviour that crosses the line. And shouting 'Nazi' is not it. I feel it is an important democratic right that anyone can to go there and protest or shout to represent their cause and maybe be heard. We need the right to gather and to express views (within some limits) and take it to Parliament's door if needs be. If it turns excessive or bcomes abuse outside of protest then that is another matter.

Of course its very easy for some to use the real abuse of women (or another like the risk of terrorism) as an excuse to remove all of the inconvenient people expressing their inconvenient views. What's that rule by TheBewilderness? Women talking about male violence makes men look/feel bad.. well people shouting at bad politicians/harmful policies just makes politicians feel bad and we cannot have that either.

ChattyLion · 09/01/2019 07:38

This is a weird thread. i’m not sure if the jibe being made is against women, feminists, an objection to FWR as a space for women to talk freely where they can’t elsewhere, or if some posters are antsy because they feel there’s some kind hive mind here on FWR (a suspicion that is easily disproven by you know.. pressing post yourself and adding your own opinion to a thread, exactly as all the posters on here have done..Hmm) but whatever-

it’s usually not that bothersome if people have stupid and misinformed prejudices or cliched opinions on MN and want to sound off about it and debate because this discussion is usually confined to an anonymous and therefore relatively safe/ non threatening online debate (a particular issue for women as PP have said). Everyone is free to post and disagree with each other and usually the discussion is richer for it.

We can have more than one thought in our heads at once if we wish to and actually it is fucking depressing watching the clips of pro Brexit thugs calling MPs being interviewed by journalists nazis and chanting scum and trying to interrupt the boradcast. It’s aggressive male entitlement all the way.

Surrounding and jostling Anna Soubry as she is walking and physically blocking her way back in to the Parliament building as if you watch the clip to the end, as one smirking ‘protestor’ man does- is ducking appalling and intimidating.

Also you look at the layout of where she is on the clip that looks like she’s going back in to the House of Lords entrance (ie not MP’s) entrance closest to the TV cameras ie she is minimising her normal route to get away from aggressive men following her and then in this case blocking her path. Most women can relate to that shitty feeling of having to do that. It’s horrible, whoever you are with or not with.

Just as it was horrible and barely reported when masked TRAs did exactly the same to women trying to meet at various meetings in 2018, all well documented here, and proven in court (Speakers corner) and captured on video blocking women in on the stairs (Bristol). They chanted Burn it Down! Burn it Down! outside a building where women were having a meeting because they didn’t like the views women were discussing and wanted to frighten them into not talking.

It is absolutely fucking shameful that the news media pointed out this example with Anna Soubry but has ignored those multiple examples of ordinary women being silenced.

A female MP Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death in recent years by a far right extremist man. other male and female MPs have had their lives threatened by constituents with greater or lesser IRL follow up, and rape threats are routinely made to female MPs. This will be putting women off joining political public life, undoubtedly, which is to the detriment of everyone. Exactly as the thuggery and fear of being doxxed and outed at work is putting off women who would otherwise be campaigning on their gender critical views openly.

This behaviour with MPs must be clamped down on as far as possible because if MPs start refusing to meet the public or to be in public then democracy is really fucked and it will undermine their awareness of the real world which they need to have for everyone’s sakes.

So it’s not that you have to pick a side on here unless you want to, these are all examples of silencing women and reporting this type of activity to the police every time- despite the lack of immediate police action- is still essential and valuable.
The climate of indifference or complacency about women’s freedom to speak or politically and to assemble to do so needs to be challenged and reported and so it’s good for all of us that media attention and formal complaints to the authorities are being made about Anna Soubry’s apparently rather unprotected right to speak to journalists and to move around Westminster without physical threats and abuse. because Soubry’s recent experience exactly IS what other women (whether as MPs or politically active private citizens) experience too.

Thank fuck we have MN and 100% respect to all the gender critical women out there in public. We’ve all often commented on here that having GC events in Westminster is one of the safest places in the country to have them. Sad

ChattyLion · 09/01/2019 07:49

If you view the Anna Soubry video she’s not just being shouted at. This thread title is not the whole description of what happened. MPs shout at each other all the time.

Anna Soubry MP is being surrounded as she walks by aggressive men, physically blocked from entering back into Parliament by the nearest/safest route she can get back in to get away from them. The grinning man doing this is physically pushed out of the way. Just have a look at the video. Police seem to stand by but it’s hard to tell who did the push- that may have been the police.

And by the way the BBC also reports that the only gender critical MP who is out with his views (thank you David TC Davies MP Flowers) and who has sponsored public meetings which allowing GC women to gather together safely to debate within the Parliament building , is now wearing a body camera due to physical threats and his physical harassment experiences.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46802779

‘MP David TC Davies has taken to wearing a body camera amid the increasing levels of abuse aimed at politicians.
The pro-Brexit Monmouth MP said he has taken to using the device for "protection and evidential purposes".
At least 115 MPs have called on police to improve their response to abusive protesters outside Parliament.
It comes after Anna Soubry, who supports another Brexit referendum, was accused "of being a Nazi", while being interviewed on the BBC News channel.
However Mr Davies said that incident on Monday was just the latest example of verbal abuse and harassment suffered by politicians on both sides of the Brexit divide.
"Like a lot of MPs on all sides of the [Brexit] argument, I've been subjected to abuse, threats and malicious allegations. It has been going on a long time," he said.
"So the camera is to protect me and for evidential purposes.
"During the last couple of interviews I've done, I've had people swearing, threatening to find where I live and I've been called scum.
"I've had flag poles shoved in my face and if I have to push objects out of the way, people have made allegations that I've grabbed them. So now I switch on the camera every time I walk up and down to College Green [opposite the Houses of Parliament]."’

Etc etc this is just an extract. Worth reading full article.

birdsdestiny · 09/01/2019 07:56

I agree, Anna Soubry was followed and threatened by a group of men. If people think that is legitimate political protest then those with the most physical power will be in charge of our political process.

Toorahtoorahaye · 09/01/2019 08:35

I don’t think I’ve ever walked down the street or to work etc with that kind of abuse and intimidation - ever. Have you OP

nellieellie · 09/01/2019 10:58

Personally, I think in protest people should be able to shout insults. “Nazi” may be wildly inappropriate or offensive, but I don’t think that should mean instant arrests.

I think the issue in the Anna Soubry case was that she was surrounded and jostled as well as the verbal insults. Must have been really scary, and given recent events, you don’t know which of those men pressing forward shouting at you may have a knife concealed somewhere.

Soubry may have been smiling in some of the shots - she strikes me as no shrinking violet and not the sort of person who wants to show fear to bullies. That doesn’t mean she wasn’t scared, nor that the men concerned should be allowed to physically intimidate those people who have been voted in to represent our views.

nellieellie · 09/01/2019 11:02

I also think that the attempted silencing of all views opposing the proposed changes to the GRA is one of the most frightening and shocking examples of anti democratic violence and harassment allowed by state and ignored by government I have seen in this country. It’s not an either/or.

theOtherPamAyres · 09/01/2019 11:09

I don’t think I’ve ever walked down the street or to work etc with that kind of abuse and intimidation - ever. Have you OP

I'm not the right person to ask: a police officer has to fight for her life and other people's lives, routinely. I daren't think too deeply about the near misses either - like a TV set being thrown from the 10th floor of a block of flats and whistling inches past my face. Enough of me.

Perhaps someone like Paula Lamont, a trade union official, might be a better person to ask. She was attacked and man-handled off her own picket line by transactivists for the offence of "having attended a WPUK meeting".

OP posts:
tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 09/01/2019 11:23

Marshmallow to be fair though Tommy Robinson is a racist thug 😊

I will admit I didn't look at all the videos when i first posted however I did then watch the clip of AS being jostled and intimidated by big aggressive men. That isn't right.

And neither is the crap that GC women have to put up with.

Others are right this had become an odd thread. My incoherent summary would be we shouldn't have to put up with any kind of intimidation and harassment from men others.

pomobrokemypogo · 09/01/2019 11:50

Thank you for the extra info ChattyLion. I have not seen the videos. And yes it is a weird thread. I don't fully understand some posts.

Clearly some people's (men's) behaviour has totally crossed the line into intimidation and needs dealing with. There is a huge difference between people being passionate and maybe a even a bit shouty, and intimidation and aggression. I just wish it was dealt with by police enforcing standards by making arrests but still encouraging peaceful protest rather than threats to remove everybody. One extreme to the other and not good for GC women and democracy either.

R0wantrees · 09/01/2019 11:54

I also think that the attempted silencing of all views opposing the proposed changes to the GRA is one of the most frightening and shocking examples of anti democratic violence and harassment allowed by state and ignored by government I have seen in this country. It’s not an either/or.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3464900-Reports-of-Macclesfield-pub-barring-woman-for-wearing-adult-human-female-T-shirt

MarshmallowSnowDon · 09/01/2019 17:03

“tellmewhenthespaceshiplands

Marshmallow to be fair though Tommy Robinson is a racist thug 😊”

Don’t think he would be a racist as I can’t think of anything racist he has ever said but I think the thug description is probably fairly accurate as he essentially ran a football hooligan outfit. But that’s kind of the point. Do we want impartial fair and decent treatment for all or not? If we as a society think it’s ok to harass and intimidate someone because they are xyz undesirable characteristics, or try and get them fired/deplatformed/silenced because they have a certain unsavoury opinion there is no guarantee that we won’t find ourselves on the receiving end of this treatment in future once it becomes a normal part of the political discourse. What that lot did to Anna Soubry was wrong but when the far left have been allowed form mobs and scream “Nazi Scum” at people in the streets and shutdown hustings during by-elections we should not be surprised when the uncivil behaviour spreads.

Tanith · 09/01/2019 19:54

Protest is one thing, but the moment it gets physical, or is threatened to do so, that’s a line crossed so far as I’m concerned and they should throw the book at anyone responsible for crossing it.

Shame they cut all that police funding a few years ago, though. Perhaps that’s the reason why these protestors aren’t being challenged.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 09/01/2019 21:15

Marshmallow
Do we want impartial fair and decent treatment for all or not?
Agree, even if those in question hold political views totally polarised to our own.

Maybe racist was harsh... going by TRs career to date though I'm not sure he's a lover of all things forrin Hmm

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