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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

UN steps in to save Saudi teenager

25 replies

Purplewithgreenspots · 07/01/2019 20:18

Just been on The Times website- on phone so no webpage. The UN have stepped in to stop the forcible repatriation of Rahaf Mohammed Alqunun!

OP posts:
userschmoozer · 07/01/2019 21:59

Its excellent news.
I don't want to be a debbie downer but I just hope they can find somewhere safe for her to go because right now that doesn't include the US or UK.

Quarepants · 07/01/2019 22:02

Didn't she ask to go to Australia from the get go? So she must have thought this through.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 07/01/2019 23:29

“Its excellent news.
I don't want to be a debbie downer but I just hope they can find somewhere safe for her to go because right now that doesn't include the US or UK.”

Why isn’t the U.K. safe for her?

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 08/01/2019 00:49

Europe hasn't been safe for Saudi princes, not just the UK:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40926963

I read a more recent article on the missing princes but I can't seem to find it. Perhaps as she's not royalty she'll be able to find safety somewhere.

userschmoozer · 08/01/2019 00:58

In 2000, a Saudi woman was grabbed from the streets of Cambridge and later found dead at her fathers home. Police did not investigate.
Her father is the ruler of Dubai. Her sister has now been forcibly taken as well.
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/04/missing-emirati-princess-latifa-al-maktoum-had-planned-escape-for-seven-years

2 Saudi sisters in the US were found dead in bizarre circumstances, after they applied for asylum.
nypost.com/2018/10/31/cops-release-first-photos-of-saudi-sisters-found-duct-taped-together/

QuietContraryMary · 08/01/2019 01:54

I'm not sure how this works exactly but apostasy from Islam in general is dangerous, but I don't know how many people and from what backgrounds in which countries would want to kill her.

SignMeUp · 08/01/2019 02:45

Good news.

Returning2thesceneofthecrime · 08/01/2019 02:50

I had heard about Latifa Al Maktoum but not Shamsa. I hope that she will be safe wherever she ends up.

NotBadConsidering · 08/01/2019 09:45

Latest concern in news here in Australia is the Australian immigration dept might have cancelled her tourist visa. Clarification being sought.

userschmoozer · 08/01/2019 09:50

These women are property, and supposedly democratic governments are colluding in this.

NotBadConsidering · 08/01/2019 10:36

To be honest, it’s exactly the shitty sort of thing this Australian Immigration department would do. After all, they’re more than happy to lock up child refugees on Manus Island and Nauru indefinitely, so what’s one Saudi woman? Who knows, maybe they’ll do the right thing for once Hmm

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 16:25

“QuietContraryMary

I'm not sure how this works exactly but apostasy from Islam in general is dangerous, but I don't know how many people and from what backgrounds in which countries would want to kill her.“

I used to live in the Middle East. Did some of my schooling there - father worked in the oil industry when I was a child. People in the Middle East are generally very polite and respectful, they are extremely law abiding as they believe their laws come from God whose existence they seem utterly sure of and they tolerate Christians and are usually kind. Certainly kinder and politer than most Londoners. But they have strict red lines. They take their religion very seriously and apostasy carries the death penalty in many countries including in Saudi. Blasphemy is also a serious crime there and homosexuality is illegal (although believe it or not I think sex change operations are allowed in places like Iran). Some U.K. so called liberals might object and take offense to how I have described the Middle East. But I’m sure the people there would generally have no problems with how I have just described it.

You can actually have a nice life living there as a westerner if you respect all their lines and can ignore the things that would be considered wrong here. Many western people would find those things bothering their conscience when they became aware of them even if it wasn’t affecting them personally though.

People here often just don’t understand it because in the U.K. most religious people actually doubt parts of their own religion and generally don’t believe that books like the Old Testament are perfect and 100% literally true. In the Middle East lots of people really do believe the Koran is the literal and perfectly expressed word of the divine. They don’t just say they believe that in my experience, they actually believe that. Also in the U.K. a religion is mostly just a person’s private set of beliefs about moral and spiritual matters. But in the Middle East Islam is also a political and legal system as well, it’s a bit like an ideology that affects almost every aspect of life. In this particular context and setting apostasy (leaving the religion which includes a political and legal system) is more like treason was in the Middle Ages here. Not all Muslim majority countries are like this. Turkey is still fairly secular (but that is changing). The most modern Muslim majority country I’ve ever been to is Malaysia, I worked there about a decade ago. In Malaysia they have Islamic law and Muslims are subject to the shariah police and courts and can get flogged for things like premarital sex and drinking but non-Muslims can drink in bars and do as they pretty much like. They get around the Islamic apostasy law by giving everyone a mandatory ID card with their religion on it and if a Muslim tries to convert they just say no, you are still a Muslim, you cannot change. They got around the apostasy law by making committing apostasy legally impossible. In the future the U.K. might become more like Malaysia with different laws for different people, but I don’t believe it will ever become like the Middle East. I hope it stays as it is though.

In some ways, unlike the West, the Muslim world seems to be becoming more religious as time goes on and not less. Iran didn’t become an Islamic Republic until the 1970’s. Malaysia didn’t elevate shariah courts to the level of other courts until the 1980’s. Pakistan didn’t even introduce blasphemy laws until the 1980’s. I believe Afghanistan where the taliban recently ruled and in some places still do used to attract hippies in the 1960’s.

userschmoozer · 08/01/2019 16:48

Religion =/= totalitarianism.

This thread is about a woman who faces being forcibly kidnapped and imprisoned or murdered. Its on a board about feminism and women's rights. At least try to read the room if you cant be bothered to read the thread or the board.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 17:24

“userschmoozer

Religion =/= totalitarianism.

This thread is about a woman who faces being forcibly kidnapped and imprisoned or murdered. Its on a board about feminism and women's rights. At least try to read the room if you cant be bothered to read the thread or the board.”

That’s unfair. I never said all religion is totalitarian and this women would be safe in the U.K. as Islam in the U.K. is not practiced the way it is in the Middle East. I simply wrote about my experience/observations in the Middle East, why i believe it is the way it is, and why I believe she would not be safe anywhere in the Middle East. I believe the U.K. should offer her asylum and I think we should have given Asia Bibi asylum too.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 17:28

Oh and I also said British liberals take offense to accurate descriptions of reality, in this case a description of the Middle East by someone who spent several years actually living there.

Chaotica · 08/01/2019 18:07

The problem is not just the legality of renouncing her religion, it is the fact that she is likely to be killed by her own family for the shame that she has brought on them (allegedly and in their social circles genuinely). There are plenty of cases.

Iused2BanOptimist · 08/01/2019 18:52

Thank you for an interesting and informative post MarshmallowSnowDon
I find it helpful to have background context.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 08/01/2019 19:08

That’s honour culture. It’s common in these parts of the world. The concept of individual liberty doesn’t really exist in these parts of the world like it does in the West. In these places doing what ones family expect of you is far more important than anything you want for yourself and ones behaviour is often seen as a reflection on the entire family. And even if you are the head of the family you can’t just do as you please, society has expectations of you that are more important than your own wishes. Many people over there regard ideas like individualism and individual liberty as self centred and immoral. In that regard it’s a bit like the far left over here, in the old communist countries individual rights didn’t matter much either. The society was everything and people had to maintain their standing in it.

Returning2thesceneofthecrime · 08/01/2019 22:19

Just wanted to say that, as someone who lived and worked in that part of the world, Marshmallow has provided a very accurate description.

userschmoozer · 09/01/2019 00:10

Still no news, the last tweet from her was about 10 hours ago, she now has friends helping with her Twitter account. She says being on Twitter and the publicity has helped her case.

GoGoJo · 09/01/2019 00:19

Why do we allow our government to support apartheid in Saudi Arabia?

As always, women's rights are not human rights as women aren't actually human in the eyes of 50%(+ )of the population

PollyFlinderz · 09/01/2019 00:32

In 2000, a Saudi woman was grabbed from the streets of Cambridge and later found dead at her fathers home. Police did not investigate.
Her father is the ruler of Dubai. Her sister has now been forcibly taken as well*

I think you’re confused about events.

PollyFlinderz · 09/01/2019 00:37

and homosexuality is illegal (although believe it or not I think sex change operations are allowed in places like Iran)

In order to cure people of homosexuality.

As someone who’s lived in the ME for more than 40 years I’ve enjoyed reading your description of it.

Returning2thesceneofthecrime · 09/01/2019 22:15

UNHRC have confirmed she is a refugee. Australia is apparently now doing background checks in preparation for issuing a visa.

Her father is now in Thailand. Not sure if she has/will/will have to meet him.

nauticant · 11/01/2019 22:15

Brilliant news, she is now flying to Canada:

news.sky.com/story/saudi-teen-rahaf-mohammed-alqunun-who-fled-abusive-family-is-to-fly-to-canada-11604749

I was concerned that the next report was going to be that she'd gone missing and would either turn up in Saudi Arabia or disappear without trace.

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