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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I may have to defend my GC position

39 replies

JellySlice · 05/01/2019 09:34

I'm an adult involved with young people. I do not intend to use the situation I am likely to be in as a proselytising platform, but I will not stay silent if anti-GC beliefs or practices are promoted.

I'm the worst speaker. I get tangled up and over-passionate, and all the data and source citations go right out of my head.

I think I need a few sheets of clear notes, with citations, that I can refer to at need and also hand to people assuming TWAWetc and affirmation.

Particularly important, I think, are:
Safeguarding children
Debunking the suicide myths
Tavistock/NHS Centre of Excellence guidance
The risks behind affirmation and desistance rates without affirmation

Help, please!

OP posts:
keeponspinning · 05/01/2019 09:48

Would there be an opportunity to arrange a viewing of Michele Moore's video? If you get tongue-tied it could help you? Or invite in a speaker or organisation?

JellySlice · 05/01/2019 10:00

No, there won't. It is likely to be me disagreeing with a presenter or speaker, or presenting a GC view in a discussion group.

OP posts:
userschmoozer · 05/01/2019 10:05

Surely point 1 should be science; male and female are biological sex classes. Children need to know which one they belong to; girls need to learn about menstruation and pregnancy.

That gives you a neat one sentence answer which is a strong, dependable position, and naturally leads on to point 2; safeguarding.

Point 3 is a list of the various problems with transitioning. Meds are being used off label in a way that sterilises gay and non gender conforming children. Its gay eugenics.
The reasons they are being used this way are based on faulty statistics. The risk of suicide is being vastly inflated, the risks of transitioning are being underplayed.
80% of 'trans' children desist and come to terms with their sexuality.

I think all the relevant stats are on the Fair Play website.

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 10:27

Discussion about useful 'fact-check' document with linked sources:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448982-Trans-Fact-Checker

Threads with resources:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

Recent article by Assoc Professor Michael Biggs (Oxford) which discusses misuse of sucide statistics by Mermaids etc in context of ITV drama 'Butterfly' (reference to GIDS)
www.transgendertrend.com/suicide-by-trans-identified-children-in-england-and-wales/

Useful article by James Kirkup with embedded links:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

sorenipples · 05/01/2019 10:31

Be very clear that gender non conforming behaviour is fine; people should be free to express themselves within the body they have. Damaging healthy bodies, removing fertility and committing to a lifetime medication and unknown side effects has to be a last resort.

I keep reading on twitter that gender critical is anti gender non conforming. Dispel this myth!

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 10:36

TransgenderTrend website will likely be good source of information as your focus is young people:
www.transgendertrend.com/about_us/

long interview with Stephanie Davies Arai:

Guardian article May 2018 describes differences in approach:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Claire Graham discusses differences between Allsorts/ Mermaids school toolkit and Transgender Trend's specifically from a policy, legislation and Safeguarding perspective:

GrinitchSpinach · 05/01/2019 11:43

4thWaveNow is "A community of parents & others concerned about the medicalization of gender-atypical youth and rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD)"

They've put together tons of information. For instance:

4thwavenow.com/2017/09/08/suicide-or-transition-the-only-options-for-gender-dysphoric-kids/

JellySlice · 05/01/2019 11:54

Thanks!

A lot of homework for me this afternoon.

I'm not sure whether I should make it personal, too, by bringing up the faith aspect. I am a member of a minority faith, and there will be other members of that faith present. Our freedom to believe and practice our faith is protected by law, as is our freedom not to believe any other faith and to refuse to practice any other faith.

I think this aspect might resonate for people who have not though beyond 'be kind'.

OP posts:
YeOldeNameChange · 05/01/2019 12:03

I go off on tangents myself so I know what you mean. I tend to stick to - there are only two sexes. Because there really are. If anyone says there are more than two then I would invite them to name them. Of course they can’t.
Yes defo bring up the faith aspect. Freedom to believe or not believe is very important.

morningtoncrescent62 · 05/01/2019 14:27

I'm in a really similar position, JellySlice. If you can get hold of the book edited by Michele Moore and Heather Brunskell-Evans it might be helpful - I found the final chapter, by Michele, really good in helping me get my head round how to make the case. I have the following three-part argument ready to hand - three clear points tends to be all that will stay in my head!

  1. Male and female are distinct biological categories about which children need to learn (someone upthread said this, and I agree, it's top of my list too). Gender is socially constructed and not innate - you can bring the faith aspect into this if you can stay on track, but I tend not to because it takes me off in a tangent.

  2. Gender dysphoria amongst pre-pubescent and early-pubescent children is not that uncommon, but with 'watchful waiting' (NHS phrase) around 80% grow out of it. If those 80% are put onto puberty blockers or other kinds of medical interventions prematurely we risk harming their bodies (the long-term effects of medicalising children this young are still not fully known) and their minds (it will become much harder for them to backtrack if they're already undergoing interventions, and the peer group pressure to stay transitioned is huge).

  3. There's no such thing as a 'transgender child'. There are children who experience discomfort with aspects of their gender, see above, but rather than medicalise them, we would do better to address the conditions that create such discomfort. So address gender stereotyping and gender-typical expectations, and low-level homophobic abuse. We currently have a situation in which society around children is sexist and homophobic, and gender-atypical and lesbian/gay identities are still stigmatised. Transgender identities on the other hand are glamourised (especially online), making them attractive to those children who don't fit the gender typical pattern (many of whom are on the autism spectrum and have a range of reasons for not fitting in, and find the idea of their rainbow family existing out there very attractive). So let's address the problem at source, and do what we can to loosen up those gendered and other expectations that leave some children feeling like misfits.

Good luck!

BlueAndWhiteTunica · 05/01/2019 14:50

I think you have to start with the ideology rather than get into all the implications, and keep it as simple and irrefutable as possible.

"I have some concerns about linking sex to personality traits under the label of 'gender identity'... Much of the work of feminism has been to dispel the belief that your sex determines your personality and interests, and we should be careful not to suggest to children that this regressive, sexist equation is true in reverse: that their personality and interests determine their sex. How do we ensure a supportive environment for kids who identify as trans, as well as all the others, without reinforcing outdated, offensive stereotypes about what it means to be a girl or a boy / a woman or a man?"

BillywilliamV · 05/01/2019 14:52

Why not fight your battles when you get to them?

BlackForestCake · 05/01/2019 15:03

Freedom of religion is also important for atheists. If somebody tries to force you to pretend to believe in the trans religion they are breaching your rights.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 05/01/2019 15:10

Always fight for what you are for, not what you are against.

So state you think women and girls deserve to retain their hard won rights and protections. Say that girls deserve to compete with their own sex and undress with their own sex. Challenge those who disagree, why do they want girls and women to lose privacy? Why do they want anti scientific lobby groups in schools?

LumpySpacedPrincess · 05/01/2019 15:12

Challenge suicide stats, they aren't true. Kids didn't kill themselves years ago so why do we need sexist lobby groups in our schools now?

AspieAndProud · 05/01/2019 15:29

The suicide stats aren’t just untrue, they are potentially self-fulfilling. They promote suicidal ideation.

TheBeastAwakens · 05/01/2019 15:37

Just marking my place as I may be in a similar situation in work this year

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 16:51

The suicide stats aren’t just untrue, they are potentially self-fulfilling. They promote suicidal ideation.

Samaritans' guidance is well established & is not a stylistic guide. It is based on the fundemental principles of supporting vulnerable people, especially children and young people who are experiencing emotional distress. The reason why Samaritans advise not drawing causal links is because vulnerable people are susceptable to identifying with this and thus the risk of them self-harming etc is increased.
It is well accepted that children and young people questioning their gender identity are particularly vulnerable. How is it possible that those who claim to promote their rights are so reckless in the constant repeating rates of suicide ideation rates with apparent disregard for the impact on this group?
www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide

Following his comments in The Guardian article which predicted a 'flurry of suicides' Stephen Whittle (Press for Change and Govt legal expert adviser for transgender reforms) was challenged on an FWR thread about irresponsible suicide comments & the potential impact on vulnerable people within the transgender community.

He considered the points made, acknowledged the importance of Samaritans' guidance and the basis which informs them.

Stephen Whittle returned to the thread to advise that he had contacted the Guardian to request his comments be edited in the following manner:
(extract)
"It has been brought to my attention that my response conflicts with the IPSO/Samaritans Guidance on reporting about Suicide, which say at
Point 2:
“there is a risk of imitational behaviour due to ‘over-identification’.
Vulnerable individuals may identify with a person who has died, or with the circumstances in which a person took their own life.
For example, combining references to life circumstances, say a debt problem or job loss, and descriptions of an easy-to-imitate suicide
method in the same report, could put at greater risk people who are vulnerable as a result of financial stress.”
And at point 3:
Over-simplification of the causes or perceived ‘triggers’ for a suicide can be misleading and is unlikely to reflect accurately the complexity
of suicide.
For example, avoid the suggestion that a single incident, such as loss of a job, relationship breakdown or bereavement, was the cause.
And at point 5:
“Be careful not to promote the idea that suicide achieves results.”

It is clear in retrospect that my comment was ‘ill thought out’ and completely inappropriate, as it could lead vulnerable and/or young trans people to consider taking their own lives, and clearly nothing could be further from my wishes. It should not have been printed.

To ensure that my comments, and your publication, meets with the IPSO/Samaritans guidance, I would be very grateful if you would amend the online comment, removing any reference to attempts or suicide" (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397010-Guardian-article-on-MPs-concern-with-GRA?pg=7

Idontbuythejellybaby · 05/01/2019 17:51

Jelly, are you going to raise the subject yourself? Or are you expecting it to be raised by others (in what context?)

JellySlice · 05/01/2019 19:29

I expect it to be raised in a training context, but probably as a trickle-down by someone who has already received the training rather than by a training organisation.

OP posts:
Idontbuythejellybaby · 05/01/2019 19:36

Right, it’s best you prep for that context then.

I have found that a single short sentence is besr

SarahCarer · 05/01/2019 19:40

R0wantrees you do sterling work here you really do

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 19:44

Important information following Michael Conroy's attendance at a Mermaids' training session for teachers December 2018.
The session was recorded.

Report with transcript link on final page:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3454658-recording-of-mermaids-training?pg=13

Janice Turner Times article which refers to the recording of the Mermaids' training: 'Trans ideologists are spreading cod science
Those who defend controversial charity’s right to a £500,000 lottery grant should really listen to what it is preaching'
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3457686-Janice-Turner-article-in-the-Times-about-Mermaids

Mermaids' response to Times article:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3458163-Mermaids-Response-to-the-Times-Article

FlyingOink · 05/01/2019 19:49

TWAW is the hardest thing to counter because it is emotional not rational. I respond with something like "and you are entitled to your opinion" and then explain my point of view on that, which is that whilst I might be supportive and polite to individuals, I do not believe TWAW. I just keep pointing out that it is a belief, an opinion and I do not share it.
It's very simple and very effective, because much of that emotional argument rests on TWAW being an article of faith.
It is less "rude" than a "no they're not" response, and it emphasises the fact TWAW is only an opinion; there is no factual retort to this.
(This is more for if you end up in an argument and don't want to get flustered).

FlyingOink · 05/01/2019 19:49

R0wantrees you do sterling work here you really do
Agreed

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