Why is conversion therapy banned?

[JellySlice]

Why are people forbidden to explore their feelings and their understanding of themselves and the way they fit into society?

Surely more harm is done by describing this exploration as 'conversion therapy' than by permitting it?

So, some early forms of "treatment" which are still being employed for gender nonconforming youth (primarily boys) really were another form of anti-gay conversion therapy.

That is, parents of non conforming children were instructed to force their children to perform stereotypes consistent with their biological sex. E.g. a boy must wear "boty's clothes" and must have only "male friends" and that this would cause him to eventually become comfortable with "being a boy".

In the sense of forcing people to engage in behaviors in order to "change" them, it is not dissimilar to homophobic conversion therapies that did things like force gay men to masturbate to images of naked women, or in the much more abusive vein, to be given electric shocks when looking at images of naked men.

The alternative to this being pushed is to allow your children to believe they actually ARE the opposite sex.

What is completely being neglected is the sane, loving and non-sexist alternative to both of these. Let your kid wear whatever they want to wear. In fact, celebrate that. Tell them they are brave and protect them from bullying. But let them know, with kindness, that unfortunately it is impossible to change their sex and they will eventually grow into a man (if a boy now) or a woman (if a girl now).

The problem is that the homophobic masses don't want this to happen, and the men's rights activists don't want this to happen. They are far to invested in gender roles and stereotypes to allow it.

When I talk about homophobic masses, by the way, I'm mostly referring to the powerful religious right wing in America which indeed are still pushing the kind of "conversion therapies" for both gay and gender non conforming people that I described. I realize the "sides" are very different in the UK.

Conversion therapy - i.e. the regressive, conservative practice of trying to force homosexual people to become heterosexual through therapy - is quite rightly banned.

It is not "forbidding people to explore their feelings and understanding of themselves."

If you are referring to transactivist's claims that anything other than the affirmation path to medical transition is "conversion therapy" then I think this is something quite different.

My friend at university was threatened with "electric shock therapy" by her dad when she came out.

In the UK I think he'd have struggled to follow through,

But gay men and lesbians have been subject to all sorts of cruel & violent "cures" for their "condition" through history.

Corrective rape is still a "thing" in some parts of the world.

That's why it's illegal.

The issue isn't that, say, a boy wants to wear a dress and make up. That's not a problem that needs to be fixed. The problem is that society equates that with being female, and is so obsessed with people fitting in boxes that they'd rather put them in a different box then get rid of the box system all together, iyswim?

*than get rid, not then

The thing is that it’s almost impossible to control who we are sexually attracted to or what turns us on.

Therapy can’t change or deprogramme our sexual desires and ought not to be promoted on this basis.

But in some cases (like pedophilia) therapy is necessary to help people not to dwell on their sexual thoughts, not to cultivate them and certainly not to act on them.

If a person wants to live a celibate life because they are uncomfortable with their sexual desires or find them unhelpful, then this sort of therapy ought to be allowed, provided it’s performed by a suitably qualified professional. This kind of therapy or support is often lumped in with or mislabelled ‘conversion therapy’ so we need to be clear what we are talking about.

But gay men and lesbians have been subject to all sorts of cruel & violent "cures" for their "condition" through history.

Yep.

I would agree that FWR's example of

parents of non conforming children were instructed to force their children to perform stereotypes consistent with their biological sex.

IS conversion therapy.

Whereas an individual having the freedom and safety to talk about your feelings and exploring reasons for something as distressing as dysphoria, as well as the variety of possible pathways there may be to help relieve it, would be good therapeutic practice.

Agree 100% hellandhairnets

I always thought conversion therapy was specific to homosexuality, treating it like a mental illness that needs curing, and forcing homosexuals to be heterosexual. Which is quite rightly abhorrent.

TRA rhetoric has appropriated the term to accuse GC people of "conversion therapy" when the only thing GC people are doing is advocating for watch-and-wait and saying eg "liking pink doesn't make this boy really a girl".
That isn't conversion therapy.

"If a person wants to live a celibate life because they are uncomfortable with their sexual desires or find them unhelpful, then this sort of therapy ought to be allowed, provided it’s performed by a suitably qualified professional."

It's somewhat controversial around here but I think this is the only sensible approach to dealing with pedophiles that have yet to offend (obviously if they touch a child put them in prison and toss the key) and other illegal / immoral / impossible sexual desires like zoophila and extreme sado-masochism for example. AGP and AAP individuals might also benefit from talk therapy as of course it is impossible for a woman with AAP, for example, to actually "be a man having sex" and she has to figure out how to deal with these impossible fantasies.

TRA rhetoric has appropriated the term to accuse GC people of "conversion therapy"

While I agree this has happened today, originally there was a case to be made that certain therapists treating gender non conforming children did advise conversion therapy. Specifically, forcing same-sex gender roles onto non-children. Those who are unwise to the details assume that's what feminists mean when we advocate therapy instead of hormones / affirmation for gender nonconforming kids.

This (quite intentional on the part of TRA) is a basis for why some feminist critics claim that we are "biological essentialists" and in fact sexist or non-feminist.

*non-children = non-conforming children.

Just as TRAs exploit & appropriate the experience of intersex people to promote transgenderism & sow confusion, they've appropriated & exploited what happened to gay & lesbian adults who once were forced to go through anti-homosexual conversion therapy for their own ends.

Conversion therapy for homosexuals was horrible & it's right that it's banned. But the laws banning "conversion therapy" in the US don't just apply to homosexual youth, they've been extended to also apply to kids who say they're the opposite sex (or no sex). And in the case of these supposedly transgender kids, "conversion therapy" means any therapy that does not enthusiastically & completely affirm a child's gender identity. Raising questions & helping a trans or NB child figure out what her gender issues are really about - those are now no-nos.

To get uninformed legislators in various US states & municipalities to outlaw "conversion therapy" for transgender youth, TR lobbyists lied through their teeth, saying a whole ton of research has been done proving how harmful it is not to totally affirm a child's trans or NB identity. But in fact, there are no studies of conversion therapy for gender identity. Studies of conversion therapy have been limited to sexual orientation—specifically, the sexual orientation of adults—not gender identity, and not children in any case.

That quote is from sexologist James Cantor, who right now is getting understandably excoriated here & elsewhere for recently saying it's time to "add the P to LBGTQ". However, his scholarly debunking of some of the lies about anti-trans conversion therapy that trans lobbyists & the professional groups they influence is excellent:

www.sexologytoday.org/2018/10/american-academy-of-pediatrics-policy.html

In what world do feminists insist that girls perform (oppressive) femininty and boys perform (oppressive) masculinity.

Wanting to smash gender roles has been the aim of feminism since forever. Things like not being allowed to vote were gender > our brains were weak because of our sex >> translates now into Barbie saying "Math is Hard!" or whatever it was. Still plenty of these ideas about.

The idea that feminists are red hot keen on enforcing gender role (sex role) is a massive bizarre reversal and the only reason anyone believes it is because in general women are to blame for everything and feminists are the worst sort of women (because, ironically, they often don't perform femininity)... lol

Yeah not really a stance that makes any sense but smearing feminists is always fun isn't it for a certain type of person.

So what conversion therapy is, is forcing a personal change upon a person, whether that change is in their belief or behaviour, and regardless of whether the person desires to change.

What conversion therapy is not, is exploring the possibilities for change, and acceptance - by all involved - of the person's consequent choices.

Exactly, NothingonTellyAgain

It's absurd. The direct opposite of the truth, in fact. Which has been carefully engineered, DARVO-style, to discredit those nasty feminists. Especially the 2nd-wavey types who are excellent at analysis, at spotting abusive systems of power and aim to dismantle patriarchal structures.

Unfortunately, loads of the young woke disciples appear to believe the lie is actually the case and don't bother to check history for themselves. One has to ask how this completely false narrative has apparently become "fact" at so many universities in the country.

If you missed it, Kathleen Stock wrote a good article about this:
www.thearticle.com/stonewalls-new-definition-of-conversion-therapy-raises-a-few-questions/

Conversion therapy doesn't necessarily have to be forced. I went through it with a certain amount of free will on my part because I believed at the time it would 'cure' me of homosexuality.

It didn't, it just scared the crap out of me.

For me the key to the error is 'conversion'. It was attempted to change me from being attracted to women to not being attracted to women. This is a stupid aim.

I agree with Caro that wishing to live a celibate life and receiving counselling for that is different if handled differently.

The problem with conversion therapy is it is the opposite of accepting reality. What you do with reality is probably another thing.

I used 'forced' in the sense of making a change happen - like you wanted to make a change in your sexuality. You were trying to impose a change upon yourself.

Yes, that's fair. I understand the impulse for change, and in some cases I think it's a grey area - there are definitely people who have counselling to change things which isn't bad at all, like smoking or phobias.

Its the abuse of moral and spiritual authority that makes homosexual conversation therapy so pernicious, imv. It sometimes involves the disclosure of some deeply intimate thoughts and deliberate association of those thoughts with the demonic, which as I said, can be terrifying.