Where will identity politics and intersectionality go next?

[MarshmallowSnowDon]

So I can see how feminism and the victimhood/oppression narrative within it lead to the recent trans rights movement, and I can see why women would been seen to be more oppressed than men but not as oppressed as trans people. I believe that under this type of thinking (group rights as opposed to individual rights) the rights of the most oppressed are protected first so a trans women’s right to use a female changing room (under this way of thinking) would trump a women’s right not to share a female only space with someone with a penis, but where does this go next? I don’t know but I predict that in 2019 we will see the BAME pay gap (where it exists) take more prominence in the media. And maybe even some white women and men in the BBC taking pay cuts if it turns out that people of colour are being paid less than them. A relative of mine working in the public sector has already been told she can’t do a management training course because it is reserved for BAME people. I imagine this will become more common in the effort to equalise outcomes across multiple groups now that having equality of outcome and not equality of opportunity has become firmly established as a goal in the mind of the establishment. What do you think 2019 will bring?

“But the crap job situation affects all working class people and not just working class white males.”

Yeah. This is sort of what I was trying to say. Social economic class seems to be the thing that affects people’s life chances in this country on a large scale like nothing else, not gender. So working class women don’t tend to get an easy time either. Oh and the “woke” twats seem to look down on the working class and have no desire to see real social justice.

“Oh and being middle class may make things easier but it doesn't mean they would never experience racial or sexual discrimination.”

No. Of course not. I’m just saying that I don’t believe women are particularly disadvantaged in the U.K. nowadays. Not that these things can’t happen. I know that the gender pay gap exists but sexism is not the reason for it. I believe men and women are just different and will never want to do the same things. It’s not a problem for me that more women go to university than men anymore than it is a problem that more men than women work in tech which pays well.

“Dragon3

So I can see how feminism and the victimhood/oppression narrative within it lead to the recent trans rights movement

Huh? Why are feminists responsible for transactivism?”

Isn’t 3rd wave feminism just identity politics? If not why not? The suffragette movement wasn’t identity politics as it was a demand to get a right that men had and women didn’t, so that would be a civil rights movement. But in the U.K. men and women have exactly the same legal rights and equal opportunities is something almost everyone now believes in. So what else is a movement that aims to represent one group of people based on their arbitrary characteristics and not another? Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.

I’m just saying that I don’t believe women are particularly disadvantaged in the U.K. nowadays.
Depends. Aged 23, a male and a childless female are pretty much equal. Both likely to be fairly poor, both same earning power, etc. Same social freedom (if you ignore slut shaming etc).
But once they have kids? She is lumbered. (He can end up getting cut out, which isn't good either).
Once they get older? She looks after her kids, her parents, etc. Possibly married. Possibly working part time. Possibly facilitating her fella. (Heteronormative relationship here ok?)
If she splits from her partner? She's primary carer. He may or may not pay up, may or may not provide childcare, may or may not play an active part. He might get cut out for good, too.
But disadvantaged, yeah. All those assumptions about unpaid work, caring for children, elderly parents, cleaning, organising, what is called "wife work" on here. Women do all that.
Employers know this and make decisions accordingly.
I don't know what would rebalance the equation, perhaps state childcare like in Sweden, perhaps prosecution for non payment of child support like in the US, who knows?

The gender pay gap is just a tiny fraction of how women are disadvantaged though. Women are disadvantaged in countless, non quantifiable ways. Just look at the thread on maternity care.

I agree that working class people have it tough in society. But working class women have it tougher than working class men. Even if men do get fewer GCSEs.

I think a great deal of working class male disaffection comes down to their perceived lack of status: they saw their dads being king of the domestic hill, but they find themselves earning the same as their sisters or those immigrants down the road. It takes some getting used to.

Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.
Agreed, and I'm not sure how much state intervention can help with some of the structural problems women face that make them poorer, harder working and more vulnerable than most men.

I think a great deal of working class male disaffection comes down to their perceived lack of status: they saw their dads being king of the domestic hill, but they find themselves earning the same as their sisters or those immigrants down the road. It takes some getting used to.
I don't disagree with this but I find that it's a kind of trope, used to explain a situation that is more accurately described in my rant above.
It's not just poor little men feeling sorry for themselves. The working class is being shafted in a deliberate way (worse than in many other similar countries) and it shows more with men because they tend to work full time all their lives, so the loss in earnings is more obvious and the loss of entire industries that were male dominated is also more obvious.

Also, if every person who worked in industry was laid off and studied, and got a 2:1 in a useful subject, we'd still be no better off. There are Greek youngsters with numerous degrees working part time in cafes or emigrating - their degree won't create a job out of thin air. So the focus on tertiary education is misguided. The inflation in job requirements means an office junior now needs to be a graduate. Why?
This is one of the many many reasons why Labour is losing votes. People need decent, mostly full time jobs. With that full time job they should be able to pay for a roof over their head and put food on the table. Basics. Hygiene factors. No time for intersectional gubbins. Ideally industry should be training and improving staff, the fact they don't and the government doesn't care means the government (of whatever hue) is complicit. Wait til we have nuclear engineers on zero hours contracts! It'll be great.

So I can see how feminism and the victimhood/oppression narrative within it lead to the recent trans rights movement,

Ok stop right there. You’re starting your argument from this point? That ‘feminism’ is the cause/root/problem, from which all this has stemmed?

I disagree. Second wave feminism didn’t cause this. Radical feminism did t cause this. Liberal feminism collided with it, but even liberal feminism didn’t cause this.

The cause is complex, but in a nutshell;

1. a pushback against the gains women and minorities have made - the alt right attacks on race lines, MRA/TRA attack on sex/anti woman lines.

1. Queer theory and postmodernism. Degradation of language and of the meanings of language.

1. Financial crash + austerity has led to pressure and a ‘squeeze’ which amplified both the above. With fewer perceived resources, people are quick to assert tribal behaviour.

Your assertion that women are not oppressed in the West is also incorrect.

Your argument is based on faulty logic.

So what else is a movement that aims to represent one group of people based on their arbitrary characteristics and not another? Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.

I don't know about anyone else, but I want liberation from patriarchy for women and girls.

The thing to watch for is leaving the ECHR.

My prediction also. No deal = bye bye ECHR.

Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.

Do they? If that's true, why is violence against women and girls such an issue - its illegal, right?
Why haven't there been any prosecutions for FGM?
Why are 50,000 women a year losing their jobs after falling pregnant?

These things FlyingOink are issues that men can face as well but women vastly disproportionately face. But it’s not sexism I don’t think. Take childcare as one of the many good examples you gave. If the couple want one of them to stay at home and look after the child it is entirely up to them which one it is. In every case I know (and I have a child myself and many of my close friends and relatives have children) the couple does what suits them and it just tends to be the woman. In fact I’ve a friend from my old work who wanted to be a stay at home dad and take half the paternity leave too but his wife didn’t want it, which financially didn’t make sense either as she as a lawyer earned more than him. Doing the Swedish thing of free childcare is a great idea but all those things the Scandinavian country’s did will not produce equal outcomes between the sexes and that is not because Scandinavian men are all a bunch of misogynists. It’s because men and women are different and make different life choices. The mistake I think Scandinavia is now making and why I think feminism has become identity politics is that having done all those noble things to remove structural barriers (which I fully support) and empower women to do whatever they want has not had the outcome they predicted or wanted. Equality of opportunity has not lead to equality of outcome and it won’t, because men and women are different. So rather than accept this the left has fallen into authoritarian identity politics and is now dividing people into arbitrary sub groups based on immutable characteristics and trying to force equality of outcome in all areas between the various groups (except the working class who they now seem to despise).

Incidentally the reason I’m not fully onboard with the trans rights movement (although I do have some sympathy towards trans people) is because I believe the sexes are different. If gender was all just a social construct rather than something based on biology that cannot be changed, and all differences in outcome between the sexes were just down to prejudice and discrimination then it would be easy for me to believe that legally changing gender and possibly having surgery could actually make a man a woman. But because I believe these biological differences are actually very real I believe that it’s just not possible to change.

“Do they? If that's true, why is violence against women and girls such an issue - its illegal, right? “

Same reason more men are in prison than women. Men are far more violent than women and much stronger physically. Identity politics won’t solve that though. More prosecutions might help.

“Why haven't there been any prosecutions for FGM?”

Don’t know. If I had to guess same sort of reason why gangs were allowed to groom vulnerable working class girls in Rotherham for so long, political correctness. Only people I see standing up to that are UKIP under their new leader. Sarah Champion tried and was removed for the front bench for her efforts.

“Why are 50,000 women a year losing their jobs after falling pregnant?”

The law not being enforced? If true that’s utterly disgraceful and the law should be enforced. Sadly I suspect this is true :(

Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.

This is a complete fallacy and hugely complacent and naive.

I do not believe this.

There is a sizeable number of people who think that certain rights for certain groups should be rolled back.

You should look harder at the news if you think that support for equality goes that far.

If most people supported equality, women wouldn't need the law to be enforced to have it.

Adult Children of Scientologists? THETANS (add appropriately oppressed acronym signifyers here)

Glad I read past the first sentence.

I'm just trying to imagine rocking up to a UKIP forum as ill informed as this and lecturing the users about their beliefs and reality.

“Almost everyone believes in equal opportunities and equal rights before the law now.

This is a complete fallacy and hugely complacent and naive.“

I believe it. I’ve actually never met anyone that believes we should have different laws for women (like we used to) or different laws for any other group for that matter. Nor have I ever met anyone who believes people should be prevented from doing a job that they are capable of doing because of their gender or anything else. Have many people told you differently? Not told you that other people believe these things, but told you they believe in these things?

In the last 20 years anyway

Hmmm.

Mate, when you've dug yourself a hole - do yourself a favour and stop digging further.

Just chill out, hang around, have a read of this board. For example, www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=1

Happy reading!

Have many people told you differently?

I know I'm not alone in this; I keep being told by men and women on both left and right of the political spectrum that I should stop being a bigot and accept trans women as women. That my sex based rights are literal violence to trans women and in breach of The Equality Act.

So, yes. People are saying that, the Govt is saying that, there have been a few meetings about it and they have attracted some pretty violent activists who object to women even meeting to talk.

Talking of incest I only recently learnt that sex between family members is legal once you are 18

Depends on the country. It is not legal in the UK. Countries which allow incest between consenting adult siblings include France, Spain, theBenelux countries and Portugal (I did not know that. I assumed it would be illegal everywhere)

Bowlofbabelfish thanks for your post, you've cracked it as usual.

Also