Guardian "What does it mean to be a woman? it is not just about femininity.

[merrymouse]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-woman-it-is-not-just-about-femininity

Feel like banging head against brick wall.

No - it isn't at all about femininity. Everyone is welcome to femininity.

There’s been significant progress in dispelling the notion that (cis) people have to conform to a stereotypical “ideal” of femininity or masculinity

There was some progress in dispelling the notion that women don't have to conform to a stereotypical idea of femininity - until TRAs decided that all people had a gender, unless they agreed to identify as some variation of non-binary, thus endorsing the notion that most people fall into one of two binary categories. There has been very little progress in dispelling the notion that men can be anything other than masculine.

Having gendered norms forced upon you from birth can be an utterly traumatic experience, and I wouldn’t blame anyone who would want to remove themselves from that.

Yes. we call ourselves 'gender critical'.

If all we’re doing as a society by existing outside of conventional gender norms is splitting ourselves into three discrete, rigid categories – women, men, and non-binary people – then that doesn’t seem like enough.

Good point! Maybe lets just recognise that we are all human beings expressing our own identity and not categorise people unless it is absolutely necessary e.g. when recognising the physical consequences of being born with the kind of body that produces female gametes or the kind of body that produces male gametes.

Bang on, LonginesPrime.

cognitive function

It doesn't seem to help with critical thinking.

CroneXX: if you're after making text bold stick asterisks at the beginnings and endings of a word or some text like this. If you include a space between the asterisk and the text, you'll break the formatting. Having a carriage return in a run of text also breaks the formatting.

I think they often mistakenly think that natal women aren't experiencing the same shit

I don't think it's the same shit at all.

I agree there is a massive fail in understanding by transwomen of what being a woman is like, and that it's a shock to experience life without the Teflon of male privilege/fitting masculine appropriate norms. But in all cases, women experience the shit that comes with being a biological female and much of the shit women are getting from TW is a belief by TW that womanhood is exactly what they themselves experience, except way easier because naturally having the kit. there is no understanding that women experience anything different, and even admitting the possibility that women might have experiences limited only to those born in female biology is threatening because that's a barrier that can't be overcome. That's something out of reach that can't be attained. (Cue a lot of: you selfish bitches, stop gatekeeping what I want).

This is at the bottom of 'you don't need bathrooms/changing spaces/showers away from male bodied self identified people because I don't '

'You shouldn't relate your experience of woman to anything to do with menstruation, fertility and pregnancy because I don't '

And we already have the stated political belief that TW can and should be in women's posts, representing women, because while no biological woman ever (funny how they can get them into an identifiable group when necessary) can share trans experience (true) all trans women have 'lived experience of being a woman that's absolutely positively the same as having been born in a female body'.

It is absolutely against the interests of women and girls to validate this paternalistic, appropriative, oppressive rubbish.

So yes, absolutely agree TW and all trans people have their own shit to deal with and only they can fully understand it. I expect the same respect and recognition towards women in return. It is not the same experience.

People who want to "do" femininity should be free to self-identify as femininers, not as women.

Is the comment "cross sex hormones to dramatically improve cognitive function", the transgender activists' way of saying that ladybrains are (allegedly) "better" than non-ladybrains?

I read that as an incredibly clumsy way of trying to say that not worrying about being "trapped in the wrong body" freed up brain space to actually worry about getting stuff done.

Unfortunately, I'd say that even assuming that the act of transitioning takes that pressure away needs more research.

I cannot understand the complete blind spot, where people can identify the issues with gender norms and gendered expectations, but then can't/don't/won't make the next logical leap to want to remove gendered expectations, for everyone!

Removing gendered expectations for everyone wouldn't reinforce their dominance over women, which is what they actually want.

If that article had been entitled, 'What does it mean to be trans?' I would have read with interest because I can well believe it must be a hard and lonely path. But for someone male born and socialised - however they identify - to think they have the authority to write about what it means to be a woman.... I cannot get past the arrogance.

Superb post Knicknack. You nailed it.

much of the shit women are getting from TW is a belief by TW that womanhood is exactly what they themselves experience, except way easier because naturally having the kit. there is no understanding that women experience anything different, and even admitting the possibility that women might have experiences limited only to those born in female biology is threatening because that's a barrier that can't be overcome

This is precisely where my sympathy wears right out. I would never presume to tell a transwoman or transman what the experience of being trans is, or how they should view themselves. I cannot get over the fact that not only do not give me the same courtesy, they actively fight the idea that non-trans people have their own gender non-conforming experiences.

Obviously, on a feminist board I tend to think of female experience. But as a mother to teenage boys, I can also see them learning to sort through all the social messages about how men are expected to act, while trying to work out which bits to keep and which bits to chuck. To assume they're happily swallowing it all purely because they don't hate their bodies is wrong.

Unless they pass, which is very rare, I fail to see how they will be treated in any way "like a woman" when everyone can see that they're a trans identifying male.

That's how they will be treated, and that's their experience.

None of it has anything to do with what females experience or what it is to be a woman and it's beyond infuriating that they think they have anything at all to say on the matter.

This has probably covered in another thread - but I think is relevant here - the Guardian are very very selective in 1) which articles they open comments for 2) How long they leave comments open for 3) Which comments they allow through or subsequently remove - Unlike the Times, the Mail, spectator etc - which have moderation - but allow pretty robust comments on many stories - The Irony is the Guardians guiding statement is ‘Facts are sacred- Comment is free’ The Guardians approach is to create a - carefully structured narrative by managing readers response - and when the responses and recommendations don’t go the intended way - they close down comments quickly and moderate - as with the above article - this is a version of no debate ( with a veneer of free speech) I was a Guardian reader for 30 years and had never voted anything other than Labour (or tactical voting against the Tories) I now pay for the Times - and find myself politically a bit homeless - Strange Times indeed

Adding my voice to "no, TW cannot - and can never - know what it's like to be female the way that we females cannot know what it's like to be a TW".

I also vehemently protest at the idea that TW can join AW shortlists but that females cannot join places that are reserved for TW.

TW are not a sub-set of women; they are a sub-set of men.

I'm a woman becuase:

1. I have two X chromosomes
2. I was brought up as a female - with all that implies
3. Society has always treated me as a woman - with all that implies
4. I've had a period every (bloody) month - including period pain, mess and the question 'am I pregnant?'
5. I have had the capacity to bear children

TW are not a sub-set of women; they are a sub-set of men.
hear, hear.

Knicknackpaddyflak

As for the "that's not for boys" constant narrative. Yeah, I get why that would be frustrating.

I mean, it was frustrating for me growing up being told I couldn't do stuff because I was a girl. But the outcome was that I got angry at the system. I didn't decide it must mean I was a boy!

Knicknackpaddyflak sorry - I meant to say you are spot on.

TW are not a sub-set of women; they are a sub-set of men.

This.

Always this.

Never anything other than this.

Why can't we just have sexual differences: male, female, inter, and NO gender? Then we would all be same as far as society roles etc. were concerned. No-one would care how we dressed, what toys we liked etc. etc. This whole 'gender' business makes society LESS equal not more.

Why can't we just have sexual differences: male, female, inter, and NO gender? Then we would all be same as far as society roles etc. were concerned. No-one would care how we dressed, what toys we liked etc. etc.

Because then some people would have nothing about themselves that made them feel special or important.

I mean, it was frustrating for me growing up being told I couldn't do stuff because I was a girl. But the outcome was that I got angry at the system. I didn't decide it must mean I was a boy!
Me too. Growing up, I wanted to play with Meccano. I wasn't allowed because this was a 'boys toy'. I dread to think what Mermaids would make of that.

It's like this 'misgendering' malarky! The only people who care are transpeople (mostly transwomen seemingly).

TW are not a sub-set of women; they are a sub-set of men.

The truth.

The Guardian might moderate comments heavily and highlight comments that align with their world view, but at the moment the most liked comments on this article are gender critical.

The Guardian can eat a massive bag of dicks and fuck right off as far as I’m concerned.

My New Years resolution is to not give it even one click. Not one. It’s dead to me.

MerryMouse - you are exactly right about this story - the reader response on this and many more Trans stories - are much more nuanced and GC - than the TWAW - mantra delivered by the Guardian - Their attempts to create a false narrative is so disappointing from a supposed champion of free speech - Newspaper comments section are immune to Terfblocker - Muting and banning ( to a larger degree than the oh so right on Twitter and Facebook)

The Guardian can eat a massive bag of dicks

It's only 2nd January but I think I might have found my new favourite phrase, thank you NewerMore and I agree with the sentiment entirely.