These types of comments infuriate me.

[QuackPorridgeBacon]

I can’t believe a woman said this. The comments are on a picture to do with abortion it was a meme and someone said it was sad. Apparently this is all we are while pregnant. It’s quite sad actually.

Sometimes, I think abortion is just another stick for misogynists to beat women with.

Exactly. When a man is telling me how awful it is for the baby to be terminated but can’t grasp how awful it is to force a woman through that when she doesn’t want to, I tend to switch off. Clearly a misogynist using something they think others will praise them for, to publicly shout that they dislike women. When women do the same it makes me sad because they should understand.

But they definitely won't have a good life if they die.

But they also definitely won’t have a bad one. Put it this way, if my child went missing, I’d rather they were killed and the body found than never found at all and always wondering. I’m being very blunt here and realise I could upset people by saying that, but I kind of view abortion in the same way. Not able to look after the child but can’t hamdle the thought of not knowing how they are etc vs an abortion which the baby has no idea about and knowing what has happened rather than not.

A foetus not carried to term suffers no disadvantage whatsoever. It never gains consciousness to dream up some life it could hypothetically have had. It also never suffers the pains that life could bring. I can see no logical basis for suggesting that abortion isn’t the ‘best outcome’ for any foetus. It loses nothing. Our fear of ‘what might never have been’ in our own cases (which is usually the emotive distraction in these arguments) has no relevance whatsoever to the pros and cons of aborting a foetus.

I agree.

Anti, emphatically yes, and that's where much of any pro-life campaigning I do focuses. It's so much more than just changing a law to make access to abortion impossible, because, as is so often pointed out, abortions will still happen illegally.

The point is to change society so that so many of the structural disadvantages that mean women often consider abortion their only choice (Not a prime pro-choice situation) are levelled. Frankly, I genuinely think that's a feminist position.

Actually women are more likely to be anti-abortion than men:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/395816-dem-pollster-women-are-less-likely-to-be-pro-choice%3famp

It certainly has been the case historically that men en mass have sought to control women’s fertility (and that was evil no question), but I don’t think the same holds true today culturally. I mean sure you have to keep an eye on religious right male politicians, but amongst men today I’d say pro-choice feminists have won the argument.

Well, tbh, it's never been a surprise to me to discover that any given man is pro choice. Its serves quite a lot of them very well indeed to have us as available fuck holes with no possible consequences for them at all.

My views on abortion changed dramatically after I had babies grow inside of me.
Before I was of the view that "a foetus isn't alive" type, but now I'm totally the opposite.
An unborn child hears, feels and thinks and absolutely knows if it is dying.

Adoption is the best alternative imo.

I believe it should be reserved for the most extreme situations, and that adoption should be advised in lesser situations such as sex-selective abortions (I can never agree with) or women who fell pg accidentally, they should be provided for financially by a system so they can give up for adoption rather than abortion.

I say this as someone who has lived with the guilt of having had an abortion over 20 years ago and have never understood why other options weren't even talked about. I was ushered through Mary Stopes like I was going for a tooth filling. In floods of tears.

^it = abortion should be reserved for extreme...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

Yes, the forced donation argument is possibly the strongest one I've encountered. But abortion is not just removing life support - it's an active, violent end, at pretty much every stage except morning after pill which is the greyest area for me conceptually, as it's the only time a foetus is actually what everyone envisions as a 'bunch of cells'.

So, unfortunately, as much as I would prefer to come down clearly off the fence here, I'm still not convinced.

Qcng what are your thoughts on the consequences of that for women forced to continue a pregnancy that they don't want? There will be health risks, risks of permanent damage and for some, death. Ongoing PND, PTSD, post natal anxiety, post natal psychosis, and other issues relating to the adoption process itself. And then the issues around the child seeking them out from 18 years old and discovering that they were a product of a forced pregnancy?

Qcng what are your thoughts on the consequences of that for women forced to continue a pregnancy that they don't want? There will be health risks, risks of permanent damage and for some, death. Ongoing PND, PTSD, post natal anxiety, post natal psychosis, and other issues relating to the adoption process itself. And then the issues around the child seeking them out from 18 years old and discovering that they were a product of a forced pregnancy?

This is why women shouldn’t be forced to remain pregnant.

Well of course forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy is abhorrent. This falls into the rare 'extreme' category.
Especially if the female is underage, been raped, prostituted, at risk in any way for continuing the pregnancy, chronic alcoholic with a risk of FAS, there are many circumstances where abortion would be preferable to birth-adoption.

But some circumstances adoption should simply be suggested or encouraged where it's a realistic option.
I was basically amazed that no medical expert through my entire ordeal of having an abortion (I was in a situation of borderline homelessness) advised maybe I would be able to put the baby up for adoption. I made my choice, and accept that but there was very little discussion it was just off you go then and under anaesthetic you go. I've basically grieved ever since. I really regret it.

No woman should be forced to remain pregnant. Likewise, women who are pregnant with an unwanted child shouldn't be vilified for wanting to give it up for adoption as an alternative to abortion.
There should be a system that provides for birth-adoption women.

"This falls into the rare 'extreme' category." - well, no not really at all. What I was describing are the risks that all pregnant women face. It's not possible to know in advance if any of those will accent any one specific woman. So every woman forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy takes those risks.

Also, even with lots of extra support, having a baby adopted isn't without its own risks and issues. It can have the same life changing effects that you describe that stem from your decision. It's not a better solution for all women. It's a different option that might be ok for some women and definitely wouldn't be ok for others.

Qcng I have no issue with it being suggested actually. But I think because it’s a hard thing to choose, abortion that is, maybe people are unsure that if they suggest something the person maybe judging? I don’t know but do people not automatically decide if that’s for them or not? Surely being pregnant on the brink of homelessness wouldn’t be doable, or am I being silly?

Personally, I think I would struggle more with adoption than a termination. I really do, I look after my kids my way etc and the thought of them not being cared for enough or god forbid hurt in some way is too much of a worry, I couldn’t stay calm during the pregnancy and then there is the constant reminder of the baby I won’t have in the form of pregnancy damaging my body, my breasts filing and yet there is no baby to feed etc. I don’t think I would handle that at all. But an abortion? As much as it would be difficult to go through, there isn’t really a constant reminder or a baby to worry about at all.

Qcng I don’t think you should be villified for having an abortion either to be perfectly honest. Problem is I “feel” forcing women into carrying a child to term is abhorrent and I feel terminating unborn children is equally abhorrent.

We should however have compassion for anyone who is or has been in your shoes. I hate to say this as abortion really does have no exact analogies and everyone seems super keen to toss their own onto the pile. Way I see it is if you see a child in the path of an oncoming car, and in the moment you think the risk is too great and you don’t jump to push them out of the way there isn’t really any negative judgement, cos honestly how many people would?

Thing is bringing a child into the world IS an act of heroism in its own way, there is risk of lifelong injury and even death (same as with that car!), yet perversely its an expectation placed on women, where you can actually look foward to negative judgement if you bring a child into this world in less than ideal circumstances!

Men in this equation are like bystanders who can shout “save that child” as loud as they like, but are simply too far away to push the kid out of harms way themselves or affect the outcome in any way.

I know you feel guilty but honestly as pro-life as I am you’ll get no judgement from me, I’ve never been in your shoes. What I hope to offer is a little sympathy, empathy and understanding. I know my analogy sucks but it’s the best I can come up with.

Yeah, I don't think either option is emotionally problem free. In Gcng's case, it's crystal clear that the counselling she received was entirely inadequate and that would have been resolved by better counselling, which would have enabled her to make a choice she would have been happier with.

In my own situation, my first abortion I didn't regret at all, or even think about much. My second was traumatic. But abortion regret is very personal and not really the strongest ground on which to critique abortion, because there will always be plenty of women who do not regret their abortion at all.

I think when we enter the realm of 'I would feel better if I had an abortion than I would if I knew I had a child that I had no contact with', we've gone into hypotheticals based on how we imagine we might feel, which is an equally weak argument for or against something.

I can see no logical basis for suggesting that abortion isn’t the ‘best outcome’ for any foetus. It loses nothing.

It loses everything it could've been.

Think of all your many life experiences and then imagine if you had been aborted - that's what you would have lost.

I'm not pro life or whatever the term is, but it seems to me that many people seek to rationalise their choices when ultimately it is just picking your best interests over that of the baby (which is human nature and understandable). But why not call a spade a spade?

The individual that the foetus would likely have turned into is an entirely independent person whose life would probably continue long after their mother had died of old age. What is sacrificed is the existence that every one of us experiences - each and every second of it.

TheVoiceOfRaisin I can see what you’re saying but I don’t fully agree. A foetus has no idea what life is, it can’t miss what it doesn’t know exists. It has no concept of wants or what they would like to be when they grow up etc. We can project our own thoughts and feelings, but the reality is the feotus doesn’t share them.

I understand your point too, Quack, but ultimately you were also a foetus at one point, with no comprehension of life.

What I'm talking about is the loss of potential.

It hAs never been 9 months so..

I'm not really sure why the balance is between 'potential' and 'comprehension'. This is probably the crux of my earlier point about arguments made about the unborn that would sound utterly horrible if applied to people who have been born.

People shouldn't be valued solely for their 'potential' future - who defines potential? And who's to say that child who lives mere minutes after being born hasn't done something amazing for her parents just by being born and taking a breath?

And sure, as far as we know, a foetus in utero has no more self awareness of 'What life is' than it does a few minutes after it's born. In fact, my mentally disabled brother has precious little grasp of common notions of potential or self awareness, but there are people who would argue that means his life should be forfeit, and lots of (in my view) right minded people see that as a disgrace.

I know I'm pretty peculiar in pro life circles, because I don't campaign for abortion to be banned, and I obviously don't think you can force a woman to stay pregnant. But I'm not pro-life because of indefinite notions about potential or consciousness. I'm pro life because life. I think you need a cast iron reason to kill someone else, and the only one that cuts it for me is self defence, which is why the forced donation argument nearly wins it but not quite.

Gah. I wish I could resolve this.

Some good points/food for thought.

For me, it's not a balance between potential/comprehension. I think me and Quack were just coming at it from different angles.

I'm totally unresolved on the issue too and fully aware that my 'potential' point could be applied to sperm/eggs too if one wanted to take it to the extreme (e.g. as soon as one is pregnant there is the potential for an autonomous life).