Family annihilation article

[SlightAggrandising]

www.damemagazine.com/2018/10/18/is-familicide-the-metoo-moment-for-domestic-violence/

Quite upsetting article from the States.

The Shanann Watts case is so terrifying to me because there was no history of abuse. He seemed like the perfect dad and a good partner. Texts released as part of the case confirm that there was no abuse, just an affair that they were dealing with.

It’s so horrific to think someone you love and trust could destroy you and your children with no remorse.

Thanks for posting. Horrifying statistics in the article.

Haven’t seen the (US?) Dame publication before.

I fail to see why someone seeming like the perfect dad and a good father has to do with this and I find that statement offensive. Men who kill their families oh so often have news reports about how lovely they were. Oh yes.

I find the motivations quite baffling. The double life these men must live and then there's the families who inter them together with their victims. IIRC this happened in Ireland but was rescinded? Not sure who's decision it was.

I fail to see why someone seeming like the perfect dad and a good father has to do with this and I find that statement offensive. Men who kill their families oh so often have news reports about how lovely they were. Oh yes.

I'd imagine Pineapple's point is that it's particularly terrifying to think that somebody could commit an act like this without any warning signs in advance - no history of abusive behaviour or escalating pattern of violence. Not that Watts was really a good guy underneath it all

Gosh this is so true when you think about it. It’s such a common thing to hear children (&/-) mother murdered by their partner/ ex partner yet it’s not something really talked about or any sort of area of interest for the police it would seem. It would seem they are too busy playing the part of the thought police to tackle male violence

I've no idea how much research is being done on male violence, but clearly there's a long way to go. Over and over again when a man (and it always is a man) commits mass murder through terrorism or a school shooting or similar it turns out he has a history of violence towards a current or former sexual partner/spouse/family members. If domestic violence and stalking were taken more seriously many lives would be saved.

Yeah, does anyone remember the Scott Peterson case? Everybody‘s darling, mum‘s golden boy. Then has an affair and decides to start fresh. And instead of going down the route of divorce, he decides to throw his pregnant wife into the San Francisco Bay, acting all grieving husband afterwards.

Ah ok, reading the article I stand corrected. Familicide means the guy then commits suicide, or tries to. Is that a relevant difference though, or are those guys just not cunning and controlled enough to hatch out a plan that may allow them to survive as free men?

I think there are multiple pathologies at play here ranging from sociopathy/psychopathy to depression so severe that said individual gets so in the hole with it their sense of perspective becomes so twisted that instead of inflicting the suffering of dealing with their suicide wipe out the whole family to spare them.

This whole “such a nice guy” schtick sometimes happens with serial killers, and I don’t think anyone meaningfully infers it’s at all the fault of the victims.

Men who kill their families oh so often have news reports about how lovely they were. Oh yes

As Cel says, that was my point.
If there was abuse, maybe you could see the warning signs and have a chance to protect yourself and your family; or someone else could see and try to intervene. But just out of the blue like that? Absolutely terrifying—I doubt she’d ever imagine something like that happening to her before he killed her.

I thought this was going to be about the Samantha Ford case which keeps popping up on my phone news app notifications.

Thats the thing with these men. Please don’t think its as simple as seeing the abuse. There’s the saying of you never know whats going on behind closed doors. Also, how long is it before an abused woman actually manages to get out? I appreciate what you’re trying to say but you are imagining the whole thing as being way more simplistic than it is. Nice husbands and fathers do not kill their families.

There are no voices left to describe what their home life was like.

Luke and Ryan Hart describe a life where their father bullied and abused the entire family for years. And yet immediately after Lance Hart annihilated their family, this is what the press was reporting: "One of the family’s neighbours said: “He seemed a happy nice man. He had done a lot of work on the house himself, but it had recently gone on the market and had been sold."
Another neighbour said: “They were a lovely family I'm honestly shocked. Lance couldn't do enough for you. He helped me with DIY in my house, did his all up from scratch."

I think it's true there's probably a hidden history of abuse and violence in many cases. But not in all; as AntiSocial alluded to, in some cases the pattern is of severe depression in the husband/father, to the point where psychosis develops and they feel that killing everyone is the only way to save them from the world. These men tend not to have a history of violence, as survivors will sometimes testify.

When mothers kill their children and/or themselves, this tends to be the pathology behind it, rather than the 'escalating domestic abuse' one.

(Regardless of whether Chris Watts had a history of violence, nothing in the story that's come out so far suggests that he was a 'nice guy'.)

You know when MRAs insist that men's suicide rates are a bigger problem than the rate at which women are murdered? I'd love to know what the statistics are on men killing themselves after having killed someone else. Because whilst I agree that suicide is a terrible tragedy that destroys families, and is a particularly big problem in young men, I'm also aware that saying 'X number of men committed suicide in 2018' does not give the entire picture. I view a suicide in man who was lonely and depressed very differently to how I view a suicide of a man who was so angry with the world that he killed his children and wife first.

Nice husbands and fathers do not kill their families.

Yes they do, thats the point. They 'snapped'. It came out of the blue. Thats why they were unable to manage their emotions. For some reason they don't see divorce as an option, they have to wipe out the past and start over. Possibly because in their mind, divorce destroys their 'nice guy' image.

“Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait.” - Gavin de Becker

I don't think they did snap. That's the whole point of the article and of Luke and Ryan Hart's campaign. There is a pattern of abusive, coercive behaviour but we normalise men's violence to such a degree that we are very bad a recognising it and calling it out.

The point where they 'snap' refers to an irreversible decision, a complete 180 degree in their attitude towards their family.
Men who invest a lot of energy into creating a nice guy facade are dangerous, in a different way to those who are abusive behind closed doors, or openly abusive.
They can be extremely controlling, perfectionism can be an issue. To outsiders it may seem out of character but its pretty clear many of them plan the disposal of their families in a cold and calculating way.
My point is we really shouldn't trust 'niceness'. It isnt any guarantee of trustworthiness.

There’s the saying of you never know whats going on behind closed doors.

Unfortunately with family annihilation stories, the investigation does dredge up these things. So we do see behind the nice facade. With Chris Watts, he was a cheater who callously killed his family so he could be with the OW. There was no abuse going on as we have pertinent texts that show this was an ongoing family breakdown.

Would they still be playing at happy family if he hadn’t met the OW? Chilling.

I will say that many of these family annihilation cases do involve domestic abuse though it is often hidden from the public eye. It often gets brought up in court.

I can’t imagine what goes through men’s minds when they actually believe that the kids are better off dead than with divorced parents. Or when they’ve lost their status as the “family provider”. Really speaks something about the male ego I have to say.

There’s the saying of you never know whats going on behind closed doors. Also, how long is it before an abused woman actually manages to get out?

“They were a lovely family I'm honestly shocked. Lance couldn't do enough for you. He helped me with DIY in my house, did his all up from scratch."

Both of these. That's why we have sayings like, "Street angel, house devil". Janus doesn't begin to capture the essence of these people.

And, for many people, there's a very low bar for being a good father/partner. There are lots of threads on AIBU and Relationships at present, describing egregious acts but asserting, "Apart from that, he's a fantastic husband/father".

There seems to be a poverty of imagination about what it means to be a good husband/father whereas there is an unmanageably high bar around what it is to be a good wife/mother. And this affects the coverage of these wretched tragedies. (In the case of the men with depression, I wonder how many of them steadfastly refused to seek or accept treatment - never understanding the risk they pose to the wellbeing and safety of others (in extreme instances).)

You know when MRAs insist that men's suicide rates are a bigger problem than the rate at which women are murdered? I'd love to know what the statistics are on men killing themselvesafter having killed someone else. Because whilst I agree that suicide is a terrible tragedy that destroys families, and is a particularly big problem in young men, I'm also aware that saying 'X number of men committed suicide in 2018' does not give the entire picture. I view a suicide in man who was lonely and depressed very differently to how I view a suicide of a man who was so angry with the world that he killed his children and wife first.

What a horribly insensitive thing to say.

84 men commit suicide a week and two women are killed by their partners. Those figures would suggest that very few, if any, of these men have killed their partners first.

How is it insensitive? I said that I view suicide in lonely and depressed men as a tragedy. I also said that I view suicide in angry, murdering men in a different way.

I guess what struck me about your comment was the way your opening line made it seem like some kind of competition. And unnecessarily linking it with men murdering their spouses/MRAs in an attempt to downplay the horrific nature of it.

"Whilst I agree that suicide is a terrible tragedy..." just sounds to me a bit like "I'm not a racist but..."

Sorry if I've misinterpreted but it did come across a bit mean spirited.