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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jordan B Peterson

232 replies

CandyTiger · 27/12/2018 19:13

I was given '12 rules for life' by the above author. At first I was insulted that the person who gave me this book, actually thought I needed a self-help book (I don't btw).

I decided to read it anyway. I am not really impressed by the so called 'intellectual' Peterson. He has a bit of a reputation for arguing with feminists.

I am very interested in what other people think of Peterson.

Thanks, in advance.

OP posts:
Freespeecher · 01/01/2019 22:39

noblegiraffe

Ouch! Anyway, it all seems to come down to whether you want to break it down to the level of the individual or the interest group. I have nothing more to offer so I'll leave it there.

noblegiraffe · 02/01/2019 00:16

Yes, Peterson is very keen to keep things at the individual level - but as Michael Eric Dyson pointed out to him, you can’t act effectively as an individual if you are constantly being seen and treated as part (or not part) of a group.

BubonicTheHedgehag · 02/01/2019 01:35

Peterson, all his life, has been a white middle-class heterosexual male. The lowest, easiest default setting, if you'd be looking at video games. The one with automatic passes, rather than having to fight to acquire anything meaningful.

He does not have a clue about the true lives and experiences of women or black people, for example. What is he like on people with disabilities? Is that also the fault of disabled people, for being disabled?

Smallhorse · 02/01/2019 18:55

Watch him in discussions. He absolutely destroys the opposition ‘s arguments.

No idea what the Donald `trump comment was about.

deepwatersolo · 02/01/2019 18:59

Smallhorse he is a good debater, but the fact of the matter is that particularly in that type of ‚destroys the other side‘ debates he is quite regularly not intellectually honest, but prefers cop-out by zinger to rational analysis in pursuit of truth.

FloralBunting · 02/01/2019 19:03

I've watched him in discussions. He doesn't 'destroy' arguments, he often doesn't seem to understand some of the points put to him. He has some interesting and cogent things to say about free speech and free thought, but tbh, these things were pretty common currency in time past and said by people who had much less of a fanboy following and said other things which were also interesting and worthwhile.

Peterson is a one trick pony, really. It's a good trick, I sometimes like watching it, but let's not pretend he's the whole circus and a box of free popcorn.

MagicMix · 02/01/2019 19:28

Basically, I think Peterson opines authoritatively on things that he hasn’t actually looked into very much. This appeals to people who also don’t know very much about those things, and annoys those who do.

This is exactly right. And it's so obvious if you do know about the topic. My DP noticed this immediately because Peterson made some confident assertions on a topic my DP does know a lot about (not feminism btw) and he knew he was talking out of his arse.

Someone without that knowledge may well have simply accepted Peterson's assertions. He's basically a champion bullshitter and people take him seriously because he's authoritative. And even though he wouldn't admit it in a million years, being a white middle-aged man is a not insignificant factor in the people who don't know about the topics accepting him as authoritative.

FloralBunting · 02/01/2019 19:48

Hmm. Peterson's strength seems to be his confidence in assertion.

I wonder if he's read the learned Rachel McKinnon's tome on the importance of asserting things confidently even if you know bog all about the topic?

MeOldChina · 03/01/2019 09:00

Since this thread started I have watched a few of his videos. I have not once seen him say birth control should be outlawed. He says that it has changed the dynamic of relationships between men and women, and that society has!n't really figured out how best to play by the new rules.

PineappleSunrise · 03/01/2019 09:08

Given that society hadn't figured out how to play by the old pre-birth control rules without making women's lives hell, I'm not convinced that's such a great endorsement.

Hard to believe that Peterson comes from a not dissimilar background to k.d. lang, isn't it?

SolidarityGdansk · 03/01/2019 10:29

MeOldChina - that is how a lot of people discover JBP.

They start watching his videos and can’t find anything to back up the wild strawman claims made against him.

noblegiraffe · 03/01/2019 17:06

I watched one of his videos because someone sent it to me expecting me to agree with him. They were rather surprised when I pointed out he was spouting crap, dodging the points being made and actually no, I couldn’t see what the fuss was about.

Since then I’ve watched a few more videos and still no great revelation, although the comments invariably say ‘omg Peterson smashed it’.

deepwatersolo · 03/01/2019 18:26

Well noblegiraffe, I also think, he often cops out and fudges the response, particularly in combative Interviews. But I still like to listen to what he says, to test my own arguments and potential biases. He is basically the antithesis to what some dismissively call ,Snowflakes‘. While the latter will argue that everyone who Self Identity as victorious King must get a kingdom and a gold medal, and each one‘s position in life just mirrors the oppression they were born into, Peterson will insist that our positions merely reflect our intelligence, talents and working ethics, everyone gets what they deserve, and if you die as a baby in a snowstorm you were just not tough enough. (Ok, slight exaggerations, I‘ll admit it).
Obviously, both positions are extremes, but listening to both and thinking them through does help me to clarify, sharpen and test my own positions.

Smallhorse · 03/01/2019 18:28

I have yet to see any interviewer who comes close to his intellect

VaginalAcoustic1212 · 03/01/2019 19:48

What does that have to do with anything? Poncing about with your intellect might be impressive to fanboys who can say you pwned everyone else in the room, but being a clever clogs who flashes zingers that shut up people 'less' than you is the mark of an utter egotist, not a feckin' genius.

noblegiraffe · 03/01/2019 19:57

The man who can only think of one reason why women might wear make-up? Confused

Wordthe · 03/01/2019 21:38

I have yet to see any interviewer who comes close to his intellect
It is pretty hard to get down that low

Wordthe · 03/01/2019 21:40

Society hasn't figured out how to play by the new rules?
You men the men have spat out the dummy because they can't have it all their own way

TomPinch · 04/01/2019 05:12

From what little I've read by Peterson, he does "get" structural inequality. He simply rejects it as an explanation for societal discrepancies and offers alternative explanations of his own. I'm not suggesting that he's correct in this view. However, few theories in the world are so obviously correct that if one understands them one must accept them, and it's not good that any theory should be treated as as a shibboleth.

He does say quite clearly that Marxist views have become predominant in the humanities. I see nothing controversial in this view. Structural inequality is precisely an example: building on Marx's class analysis. People like Laurie Taylor on Radio 4 happily acknowledge it. Peterson's position as a classic liberal more in the tradition of Mill and Bentham, has to reject this in order to maintain the liberal view that individual responsibility is what counts. That being his view, it's really very clear (in my opinion at least) why he believes society is so threatened by use of Marxist ideas: instead of resolving issues by reason (like classic liberals) they are resolved by power struggles in which one identity group triumphs over the other by fair means or foul.

Which all seems a bit alarmist, but things seem eerily reminiscent of 100 years ago, when liberalism began to be under attack from.... yep, Marxist-Leninism.

I doubt that Peterson has said half the things ascribed to him on this thread and I don't see a lot of reputable sources bring cited. That said, I probably ought to read what he's got to say rather than what others say he has to say before commenting any further.

deepwatersolo · 04/01/2019 07:25

TomPinch to be fair, the rights of workers and the vote for women were not obtained by reasoning but by power struggles. A hundred years ago the Western world was not a better place for most people than today, let alone than in the 70‘s, before the neoliberal backlash began. (No, I am not saying neoliberalism equals liberalism. I am saying neoliberalism together with its child, globalization, eroded the potential of the working class to fight - by power struggles - for a fair share.

Reason would prohibit that Bankers can make risky bets that are insured by taxpayers if there are losses, while they keep any gains. Reason will not end this and other practices that funnel wealth from the bottom to the top, (without the top demonstrating particular competence or work ethics, which JP seems to credit for their status. All they usually have are inherited wealth and bought Politicians.) only power struggles will.

TomPinch · 04/01/2019 11:40

deepwatersolo

to be fair, the rights of workers and the vote for women were not obtained by reasoning but by power struggles.

In some places, yes. Not in others. It's easy to make the case that universal suffrage and workers' rights was a result of society liberalising rather than power being prised away from an elite by force, at least in the English-speaking world, and the fact that there was some civil disobedience doesn't negate this. In NZ for example, universal suffrage came about with no violence at all: Parliament simply did it, despite being comprised of men, simply because the reasons for restricting the vote to men only were clearly untenable, even to them.

The Marxist view is that all advances come about through internal contradictions and force, and this is all natural. I think this is highly contestable.

A hundred years ago the Western world was not a better place for most people than today, let alone than in the 70‘s, before the neoliberal backlash began. (No, I am not saying neoliberalism equals liberalism.

I have to agree: advances in science and technology have improved all our lives. However, the Western world has taken some terribly wrong turns to get where we are now. I'm thinking of the totalitarian ideologies of the middle of the century: Stalinism, which clearly derived from Marx, and facism, which adopted some Marxist ideas in a highly debased form: most significantly the idea of an oppressed identity group. The result was the deaths of millions during WW2 and (in the USSR and China) millions afterwards too.

I suspect the classic liberal would say that all those deaths could have been avoided. Whether Peterson has anything to say on the point will be something I'll bear in mind.

I am saying neoliberalism together with its child, globalization, eroded the potential of the working class to fight - by power struggles - for a fair share.

There is far more discourse about identity groups and structural inequality than there was before the GFC and I agree this is because of the effects of globalisation and the free market. A Marxist would say (with plenty of justification) that the inevitable consequence of the return to liberalism after the 1970s was inequality, gambling bankers, bailouts and so forth, ie that those who have shall be given more and those with less shall have even that taken from them.

My memory of the 90s is that people talked in terms of the playing field being levelled. That's gone now. The narrative in, for example, the Guardian has gone from liberalism to progressivism.

Reason would prohibit that Bankers can make risky bets that are insured by taxpayers if there are losses, while they keep any gains. Reason will not end this and other practices that funnel wealth from the bottom to the top, (without the top demonstrating particular competence or work ethics, which JP seems to credit for their status. All they usually have are inherited wealth and bought Politicians.) only power struggles will.

Well, it depends on what one means by power struggle. I wouldn't take it to include nations electing governments that create laws bringing bankers to heel. That would be an example of a liberal democracy in action.

But will that happen? Who knows. In the decades leading up to 1914, the world was becoming richer and more peaceful, there was more international co-operation, civil rights were being advanced, and while life wasn't anywhere near as good as now, things were heading in the right direction relatively quickly. We decry the Victorians but society in 1901 was better than in 1837.

Then all the wheels came off: in western Europe they didn't start to get put back on until 1945 and in eastern Europe much later than that.

Perhaps Peterson is worried that the resurgence of Marxism means we're in the early 20th century all over again and the deluge is coming. Trump, the rise of China and climate change might suggest that he has reason to worry.

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2019 11:55

Peterson doubts the scientific consensus on climate change.

deepwatersolo · 04/01/2019 14:16

The very point is that our oh so liberal Democracies will not bring the Bankers to heel. It apparently always takes the threat of the pitchforks for the elites to concede anything. The fact of the matter is that once Occupy WS was smashed - with prominent involvement of Homeland Security - discussions in elite circles about reintroducing Glass Steagal became way less urgent.

The WS elites will rather buy luxury bunkers and invite some visionary academic to tell them how to ensure their guards‘ loyalties (a cuff around the neck via which they can administer electroshocks, maybe?) than work on building a more equitable society, as the academic suggested. (Yes, that meeting really happened).

Nobody denies that we would not be where we are without technology. Our life styles would be impossible without the easy energy of oil. Doesn‘t change the fact that the common man would never have been allowed to participate in the resulting wealth without revolution or the threat thereof - as the current roll-back and increasing inequality demonstrates. Once the alternative, communist concept collapsed, the threat societies might choose that over market radical exploitation was gone, and there we went. As predicted by Weizecker (brother of a German president and by no means a commie).

I don‘t know all of JP‘s positions, but if he thinks the successes of Western Democracies in allowing the masses to participate in the wealth of their Nations is not a result of at least the threat of pitchforks and gallows by disenchanted masses, he is an idiot of the first order.

The New Deal (including Glass Steagalk) was introduced to appease the masses and save Capitalism, not because of some new technology or the enlightenment of the elites ffs.

TomPinch · 04/01/2019 20:06

Well, I disagree. I think it's easy to name any number of societal reforms across the Western world that have come about without the threat of pitchforks. I say that although society over the last 30 years has become more materially unequal, various groups have been identified as disadvantaged and given additional safeguards to their civil rights, and all of this has been achieved without any meaningful threats of pitchforks. In fact I would go so far to say that the opposite is an attempt to jam the facts of history into a theory of Marxist dialectical materialism. You gave the example of the New Deal, which is one reform in one jurisdiction (although an important one). That's an example of liberal democracy working: a democratically elected government, sufficiently in touch with the population, enacted reforms to improve the life of the average person, and this was achieved without the US coming any close to revolution. It's really just not an example of historical forces obliging anyone to act in any particular way. It doesn't need to be explained in Marxist terms.

Even in the UK right now, it's perfectly possible to bring bankers to heel. You simply need to elect a parliament that passes the appropriate laws. The current leader of the opposition strikes me as someone would would be prepared to do just that.

I expect that Peterson (and perhaps other classic liberals like Singer and Pinker) would say this too, and would therefore add that the takeover of Marxism in the humanities and its increasing importance in public debate is totally unnecessary and in fact deeply harmful.

So as you have probably guessed, Peterson's philosophical background as a classic liberal will get a sympathetic reading from me, although quite why that would require him to be climate change sceptic (or eat a diet of only beef, salt and water) does worry me a bit.

As it happens, I've read a couple of his blog entries already. They remind me of church sermons (I don't mean that in a derogatory way), ie, they set out some past myth or story (e.g. Mesopotamian gods) and then expound on what we can learn from that. I have no idea whether or not he's interpreted the story accurately, but his conclusions are all about individual responsiblity and self-improvement, and there's nothing obviously wrong with that. I can see why people might think he's religious: he comes across as some sort of secular saint or prophet.

IfNotNowBernard · 04/01/2019 20:58

I don't know who he is but he sounds tedious. I'd love to be a judge (guilty as charged!) but who would look after my kids? Hmmm. Maybe men tend to work longer hours because someone is looking after their kids?
Also, this made me laugh :
It's almost as though women don't want to do all the tough jobs in society
Reeaaallly??? Because, in my humble experience, women wipe all the arses. Operating a bin lorry aint that hard. Wiping all the arse-far worse.