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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boys and mens choirs

47 replies

drspouse · 25/12/2018 21:12

I know they are less common now than they were but watching Carols from Kings has made me think about this.
When I was a child I was in a girls-only CofE choir, so SSA. It was unusual at the time. Children who sing in good quality church choirs (cathedrals etc) get a really good grounding for a career in music and I'm assuming still get scholarships to schools and colleges. Yet some are still only open to boys and men.
Where I live as an adult there is a big church with two very good choirs: boys and men, and girls and the same men. I believe the younger men get a small stipend (beer money for the student types) and of course both the upper voices and tenors could be sung by women. Again it's an intensive singing training that young women can't get.
My understanding is that girls only sing very solely differently to boys due to socialisation before puberty (girls learn to sing like other girls). And I imagine that some girls sing in a more "boy" manner.
So how is this still possible? Especially for school/college age, when it's not a club of like minded adults?

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MargueritaPink · 25/12/2018 23:19

St Mary's Episcopal Choir, which must I'm sure be the best in Scotland (and certainly will hold its own with the big name English choirs) is mixed.

Choir – St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral
www.cathedral.net/music/choir/

It was the first in the United Kingdom to allow girls to join boys as trebles in 1978 and then, in 2006, to allow female altos to sing alongside countertenors in the choir.

Their performance at last night of Haydn's Missa Sancti Nicolai was spine- tingling.

lovemylot1 · 25/12/2018 23:21

This is so close to my heart. I was a music scholar at a traditional private school, sang in chapel daily, won a coral scholarship to a famous London church in my final year,

I clearly remember when I was about 17 approaching an admin at Canterbury cathedral to ask about opportunities to sing there, was bluntly told of course girls don’t sing here.

There are so very few opportunities for girls and women to sing English church music professionally. I applied to Cambridge where there are a few colleges with professional choirs including women but was rejected.

It’s just wrong.

drspouse · 25/12/2018 23:22

Boys voices are different from girls’
But is it because they are trained or learn to me that way? And can some girls sound more "boy"?

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lovemylot1 · 25/12/2018 23:23

It's outrageous and there is no justification for it apart from tradition and patriarchy.

I agree

drspouse · 25/12/2018 23:25

love I agree it's dreadful.
I was at an Oxbridge college which is just amateur (only an organ scholar) and my girls' choir days were invaluable. Most of the organ scholars were male, again having come up through the choir ranks.

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IrenetheQuaint · 25/12/2018 23:27

I thought there has been research demonstrating that it is practically impossible to tell the difference between the singing of pre-pubescent girls and boys, if they've been trained in the same way.

(I prefer listening to adult women singing sop and alto anyway, as long as they sing straight without vibrato, so don't have an aesthetic preference for boys v girls.)

lovemylot1 · 25/12/2018 23:28

Oops, I won a choral scholarship. Haven’t a clue about coral.

IrenetheQuaint · 25/12/2018 23:29

Yes, the organ scholar split was about 10:1 male:female in my time. That was 20 years ago so maybe it has improved

drspouse · 25/12/2018 23:33

I thought it was mainly training too, Irene.
I'm about your vintage too, 80s in a church girls choir then 90s at uni with nothing even remotely similar.

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2rebecca · 25/12/2018 23:37

I don't want to see the end of boys and male voice choirs. There are still options for mixed or just girls choirs like the national choir of Scotland. If girls choirs are less prestigious this could be tackled but I think young boys sound beautiful and it's hard enough to persuade boys to sing. I don't want an end to single sex things.

IrenetheQuaint · 25/12/2018 23:42

I haven't seen anyone on this thread argue for the end of boys' choirs. We are arguing for parallel girls' and boys' choirs. So that girls and boys have equal opportunities.

anniehm · 25/12/2018 23:47

Most choirs are either mixed or have both boys and girls now. My daughters are choristers.

anniehm · 25/12/2018 23:49

Ps, my elder dd sings semi pro on a scholarship

MargueritaPink · 25/12/2018 23:50

I haven't seen anyone on this thread argue for the end of boys' choirs

You wrote It's outrageous and there is no justification for it apart from tradition and patriarchy

LatinForTelly · 25/12/2018 23:52

There was something on the radio about this the other day. Apparently experts have been unable to tell the difference between pre-pubertal boys' and girls' voices reliably, so the tone thing (which I was always told about) can't hold true. I think, as others have said, it's just tradition and patriarchy.

Pythonesque · 26/12/2018 00:02

Salisbury use their choristers fairly equally and make a point of not advertising which choir, boys or girls, is singing a particular service or broadcast. Big services are joint. When my daughter was there I couldn't always tell who was singing at advent services where they often alternate for different carols as they move around the cathedral, even though I knew a lot of the voices well.

Some of the cathedrals have deliberately used a different age range for their girls which helps keep what the boys are doing distinct (so they don't lose the boys); the presence of older girls tends to change the overall sound, but also an older group can approach repertoire differently.

I've always felt that at least some girls are capable of singing with a "true treble" sound - first became aware of this hearing my younger sister sing a spine-tingling solo at a school carol service age 12. Equally boys often aren't trained to the pure clear "traditional" treble sound (and I'm not sure what I think of that). Oh and girls do experience a voice change around puberty too, just much less pronounced so unless they are singing a lot you won't notice it (my daughter lost about a third off her "top edge" around age 11 for example).

I get the impression there is a creeping acceptance of women altos into traditional choirs.

headinhands you mention Wells - they are a cathedral that runs boys and girls lines; we considered looking at it before my daughter went to Salisbury.

Personality and socialisation differences influence how choristers respond to training - it is interesting to talk to choirmasters who have charge of different groups about how differently they find they work with boys and girls, even though with the same goal. The "dynamics" of a mixed group could be different again. I'd hate to see all boys choirs disappear in favour of only mixed ones, there is a role for both. Finally, the elephant in the room with the college choirs that still have boys, is the choirschools. Those that remain boys only are often not big enough to expand sufficiently to take girls. If you train choristers without a choirschool, logistics make it impractical for them to sing so many weekly services, and their overall rehearsal time will be much less. (I think my children had 10-12 hours a week actual rehearsals, not including services times).

I'm not yet familiar with the fine details of university choral scholar opportunities, just starting to research it as my daughter will certainly be considering it over the next couple of years.

In terms of overall musical achievement, the thing that makes the biggest difference is the expectation that fairly young children can make music at a high level. If you expect that of singers then you get amazing results. If you expect it on instruments, you can also get amazing results. If you start later and slower and think only a little time should be given over to music practice, then you get slower results. I'd like to encourage everyone to find ways to pursue music with their children, surround them with a range of good examples, get them involved in music making, believe in them and encourage them to put in the effort and go out and join groups where they can grow their achievements.

smithsinarazz · 26/12/2018 00:07

Very, very few churches have the resources to run one junior choir, let alone a boys' and a girls' one. Where I sing, girls have been allowed in the juniors for decades. I have been told that girls and boys are indistinguishable by sound alone - I don't know, but I do know that it akes a hell of a lot more difference whether they are trying or not.
Obviously, I'm arguing for girls in the choral tradition. Well, I would, wouldn't I? But, as previously noted, mixed junior choirs tend to lose their boys. Ours drop off in their early to mid teens.
But then, I'd say - isn't that another problem with toxic masculinity? Each to their own, and all that, but for me, the English choral tradition has been at once, a safe haven where I can anchor myself with the ties of camaraderie; a means of expressing and learning to live with the extremes of human feeling; and a way of making music far superior to anything I could possibly achieve alone. The idea of any young (or old) person being denied that, either because of being the wrong sex, or because of the fear of mockery, makes me really sad.

TheMatriarch · 26/12/2018 00:22

Dd was in a cathedral choir, they had two choirs, boys and girls, both sang equal number of services and special services together.
There is a very slight difference between boy's and girl's voices, but it’s barely noticeable.
There was some snobbery around the girl's choir, suggesting they were inferior to the boys, and I imagine this is the case with very well known, traditional cathedral choirs.

SirVixofVixHall · 26/12/2018 00:41

Possibly it is training. I always assumed that with boys just pre puberty the difference in sound was to do with chest size, but that was an assumption rather than based on knowlege. Perhaps I am wrong. I will ask my teacher who trains both sexes.
I am passionate about choral music and enjoy all the different permutations. Agree that more female choirs would be a lovely thing, although personally i really enjoy singing with men because the bases can produce such an incredible, resonant sound.

SirVixofVixHall · 26/12/2018 00:46

Womens’ voices often drop again at menopause, so there needs to be a mental and emotional shift into a different section. I don’t know if men have a lowering as they get older ?

smithsinarazz · 26/12/2018 11:07

@Pythonesque good contribution, lots of food for thought.

charis · 26/12/2018 11:21

I vaguely remember a mini- documentary in which it was said that they couldn't find a boy to sing the theme to "The Bear" so went with a young Charlotte Church instead. They'd been after an Aled Jones sound. Even as a child there's a huskier quality to her voice in comparison. It's a beautiful song.

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