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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Online toys let boys be boys and girls be drudges '

36 replies

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2018 16:34

Yet another article in the Sunday Times today, which includes quote from born-on-MN 'Let toys be Toys'. It's good that responsible retailers such as John Lewis have got the message to stop stereotyping kids toys but eBay etc are depressing.

This is surely an issue on which everyone who cares about kids fulfilling their potential should support, even those who can't or won't engage with other feminist concerns.

I'll put the link in the next post.

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MargueritaPink · 23/12/2018 17:12

A search on Google for “gifts for girls” and “Amazon” last week suggested 74 gifts from the online store. Items in the top 20 included a toy washing machine, a pink play kitchen, a wooden set of pots and pans and a toy ironing set

Why would anyone run a search for "gifts for girls?"

I really don't understand this. If one starts off with such a loaded instruction I'm not sure why there should be shock, horror and surprise when the result is skewed to stereotypes. We don't do mother's day in this household but "mother's day gifts" for example will produce things like CDs of music I would loathe and items of bilious sentimentality.

It's not even a useful instruction given girl could mean anything from newborn to 16 years old. Why not search "gifts for 10 year olds/ "gifts for Harry Potter fans"/ gifts for pony fans" or whatever.

It reminds me of the poster here who complained that she couldn't find a birthday card for her daughter that wasn't pink and sparkly. There are literally millions of cards to choose from if you make a choice of something the recipient would like / is interested in. I really didn't understand why anyone would even be looking for a card targetted at a generic "daughter" rather than the specific recipient.

Gronky · 23/12/2018 17:34

If one starts off with such a loaded instruction I'm not sure why there should be shock, horror and surprise when the result is skewed to stereotypes.

Really nicely put, MargueritaPink

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/12/2018 17:40

It shows that those items are labelled or tagged as for girls.

When searching for a card that has the word "daughter" on, and why not if it's for your daughter, the complaint was that the cards available were all pink and sparkly. Why should a card with the word daughter on it have to be pink/sparkly? Of course you could get another card without the word daughter on it, but that doesn't change the fact that the choice is very limited if you happen to want to buy a card labelled "daughter".

To try and suggest that toys and cards aren't still very "gendered" is to be wilfully blind.

Gronky · 23/12/2018 17:47

To try and suggest that toys and cards aren't still very "gendered" is to be wilfully blind.

Regarding 'gendered' toys, searching for toys using the term 'for girls' will, by definition, produce toys that are 'gendered' but that isn't representative of toys as a whole. It's like looking for 'cooking apples' and then drawing the conclusion that the majority of apples available aren't suitable for directly eating. Until you start comparing the ratio of cooking apples to general apples on offer, you can't really draw conclusions about how biased the apple market is towards cooking apples.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2018 17:47

Why would anyone run a search for "gifts for girls?"

Well meaning but clueless aunties and uncles. Parents and grandparents who themselves were brought up within the blinkers of stereotypes.

Searching for 'gifts for girls' is fine if done with the John Lewis approach!

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MargueritaPink · 23/12/2018 17:51

It shows that those items are labelled or tagged as for girls

I know that but thanks for the feminist plaining there. Your explanation fails to address why one would use that search term in the first place unless one was of a mindset that "gifts for girls " is a thing.

What the hell would a searcher be expecting? Common sense says all toys are for all children- so what purpose does the search "gifts for girls" serve? What meaningful or better result would be achieved than say "gifts for 10 year olds"?

MargueritaPink · 23/12/2018 17:54

Searching for 'gifts for girls' is fine if done with the John Lewis approach!

No it isn't. It is only "fine" if you think some toys are suitable for girls and some for boys. You are perpetuating pointless differences by using that search term.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/12/2018 17:56

See the above post. Also, it shows that those items are labelled which means that the retailers still think it is worthwhile to do so. Which shows that lots of people do still think like this, and there is still a lot to be done to drop those old fashioned beliefs.

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 17:59

I agree it would be good if toys weren’t gendered in searches - it will be kindly well meaning relatives often and people can immersed in stereotypes using that search and it might do some good for them to have a lovely mixture of dolls, science kits, footballs and cooking sets coming up for them.

But I can imagine the retailers find it often more lucrative to conform to the stereotypes. That’s surly how we got to (or what will have encouraged) this horrible amount of gendering (compared with the 80s when we all thought it would all be gone by now) - capitalism and the desire to make as much money as possible, so important to make sure children ‘can’t’ share toys.

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 18:02

Let toys Be Toys has been brilliant for getting change happening here, and hopefully things can keep moving in this direction. It is sort of necessary to embarrass the retailer so they feel its better PR to stop segregating toys than it is profit to keep doing so.

Lettera · 23/12/2018 18:02

Marguerita

items of bilious sensibility Grin

Lettera · 23/12/2018 18:03

Oops - I mean sentimentality of course

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2018 18:04

You are perpetuating pointless differences by using that search term.

No; the person making a search for girls may be - deliberately or not - making an assumption that girls and boys like different things. That's why it's good when JL etc don't perpetuate the pointless differences in what their search yields.

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deepwatersolo · 23/12/2018 18:11

I talked with my cousin about our childhood in the 70‘s and how great it was that there were no toys for girls and toys for boys in our memory, but just toys, when her 8 year old daughter chimed in insisting: ‚But there are some toys for girls only and some for boys only.‘

This is so pervasive that even as a parent you feel kind of poweless, sometimes.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2018 18:18

Why not search "gifts for 10 year olds/ "gifts for Harry Potter fans"/ gifts for pony fans" or whatever.

Most searches for kids stuff I've seen filter by age in addition to other terms. More specific searches obviously are a good way to go for older kids whose tastes you know - but that's often not the case.

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Vegilante · 23/12/2018 18:36

Thanks for this. But I am confused by the "research" - if it can be called that - this article is based on, which is described as follows: A search on Google for “gifts for girls” and “Amazon” last week suggested 74 gifts from the online store. Items in the top 20 included a toy washing machine, a pink play kitchen, a wooden set of pots and pans and a toy ironing set.

So did they do this search on Google or on the Amazon website? Searching Google & Amazon are two very different things. (Also, why is the Times in that sentence putting quotation marks around Amazon? Amazon is the official name of the company; it's not a nickname.)

When I did my own search just now on Google for "gifts for girls" I got totally different results than the Times. In fact, the first non-advertiser-sponsored result (after three sponsored ones) that came up was a recent article from Esquire listing 27 items, most of them non-sexist. Yes, there was a makeup kit, a cosmetics case, a purse & a mini waffle iron. But most of the gifts were "empowering" ones that encourage girls to become inventors, architects, artists, animators, electronics whizzes, photographers, plant-growers, home repairers (what used to be called "handymen"), bike riders & basketball players. It's worth a look.

www.esquire.com/lifestyle/g1692/best-girls-gifts/

Still on the same search-results page on Google, an Amazon-sponsored result headlined "Girl Gifts" appeared immediately above the Esquire article. When I clicked on it, I was taken to this:

www.amazon.com/s/?hvptwo&hvnetw=g&keywords=girl+gifts&hvadid=313636410678&index=aps&hvpone&ref=pd_sl_5oein4onps_e&hvpos=1t2&hvdev=c&hvexid&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&hvtargid=kwd-197225305&hvrand=10448180539677968722

The first page of the "gifts for girls" category on Amazon showed 26 items, starting with a "hover soccer game". Many items shown are gender-neutral products needlessly manufactured in pink, such as a hot pink set of walkie-talkies & a pink HD video camera. And some of them are items conventionally considered "girly" such as a pink diary, various jewelry items, a pink shoulder bag with bunny ears, whimsically-decorated knee socks & a "Kids Washable Makeup Set With A Glitter Cosmetic Bag". But most of the items on the first page (again on Amazon not Google) were things like terrariums (three on the first page), cameras of various sorts, gaming accessories & kits for doing arts & crafts. The only home or kitchen appliance shown is an ice machine for making shaved iced & "snoballs". And one of the girlier jewelry items is an expandable (all-age) bangle bracelet that says "You are Braver Stronger Smarter Than You Think", which Amazon labels a "#1 Best Seller".

Page two on the same Amazon link shows more terrariums, arts & crafts, jewelry, & kits for making lip balm, glitter nail art, & chalk pens for hair colouring. But the fourth item is a book "Women in Science: 50 Fearless Pioneers Who Changed the World".

When I went to Amazon directly from my browser (not through Google) & typed in "gifts for girls" in its search bar, the results were even less sexist. The first two items on page one were ad-sponsored, one a mini-drone set for boys & girls, the other a NextX Doctor Kit, ("35 Pieces Pretend Play Toys Kids Electronic Stethoscope Dentist Medical Kit Gifts Boy & Girl Educational Learing Roleplay, Blue"). Other sponsored items on the page include two more drone kits, & a wooden truck car-carrier for young children. The non-sponsored items included mostly arts & crafts kits, a jumbo work surface & storage case for jigsaw puzzles, & a "VTech Kidizoom Smartwatch DX" in purple, along with several items from the Amazon "Gifts for Girls" page accessed via Google such as the glittery makeup case, the pink bunny-ears purse & pink walkie-talkies & cameras. But no jewelry.

I did these searches from where I am the moment, the USA, so I'm wondering if it's possible that searching Google & Amazon from the UK might produce entirely different results. Not to diss the Times, especially when it's doing such good work on on the threats to women's rights posed by transgenderism, but as a former journalist who once worked at an internationally-esteemed publication, I think the real lesson here is don't believe everything reported in the press.

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 18:38

Vegilante they mean that the person put into Google ‘gifts for girls Amazon’

Vegilante · 23/12/2018 18:57

@ScipioAfricanus - thanks for clarifying that for me. But if that's the case, the Times should've written it as you did, not as they did. Unless, of course, they did their search way back in the old days when quotation marks & + signs were still used in web searches.

Vegilante · 23/12/2018 19:38

After ScipioAfricanus clarified the point that confused me, I entered gifts for girls Amazon into the Google search bar both without & with quotation marks around the text. None of the links that came up on the first results page in either case are similar to - or anywhere close to - what the Times claims it found. Most of the Amazon pages that appear specify gifts for girls of particular ages, in keeping with the common ways of categorizing that other posters here have pointed out. But interestingly, the youngest age listed on the search results page is 8.

On the search results page for gifts for girls Amazon sans quotation marks, none of the individual results such as "Gifts for A(n) 8 Year Old Girl Amazon.com" & "Gifts for 12 Year Old Girls Amazon.com" show anything like what the Times said they found in their search.

www.amazon.com/slp/gifts-for-a-8-year-old?tag=mumsnetforum-21 girl/5xdwv9feadmg7hq

www.amazon.com/slp/gifts-for-12-year-old-girls/25n4adjgyrua7hm?tag=mumsnetforum-21

I also searched for gifts for toddler girls, 3 year-old girls, 4 year-old girls Amazon both on Google & Amazon directly, & none of the results yielded anything close to what the Times says they found. Not even in the same universe.

I don't think the Times actually did the search they say they did. My hunch is that they took the word of one of the groups they cite. Otherwise why not provide the url to the Amazon page they're speaking of so readers can check it out for themselves?

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 22:01

I was curious so I’ve had a go. I got this (first photo) result from google which echoes the report - listing 74 results as the article does. But when I clicked through it took me to a landing page (second picture) which offered an array of options including games and I’d have had to click through to ages (both boy and girls) or brand (Mattel, barbie) or type of toys (art, construction etc) to get actual specific toys. There isn’t a ‘girls toys’ section I could take a top 20 from so it does feel a little misleading.

I think that searches appear differently in laptops/phones etc and also I assume (but can’t say for sure) that the results could also be influenced by other things the computer now knows about you so I wouldn’t expect it to be exactly the same. And in my case, I’m signed into my account automatically so that might be a different experience to someone who isn’t or doesn’t have one. Amazon might also have modified it after receiving notification of the article. However, when I clicked through to Amazon it was much more like I would like than I’d expected - opening up the search to a wide array of interest rather than assailing me with pink and unicorns - so that was quite pleasant.

'Online toys let boys be boys and girls be drudges  '
'Online toys let boys be boys and girls be drudges  '
ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 22:05

Actually, given Google result links don’t update for a while, that they probably were notified by the Times that the article was happening, and that the link states ‘Results 1-24 of 74’ and ‘Gifts for Girls’, but takes me to a different page, if I had to bet on it I would say it is most likely that Amazon altered the way they list the results for this search some time between being told about the article and me and Vegilante doing the search. Just speculation.

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 22:17

I did the eBay search for girls toys aged 5-7 and that was very gendered - top 10:

1 - Children’s art kit set (array of colours)
2 - Kids kitchen - red and pink ones shown (presumably red not quite girly enough)
3 - Disney sticker art set - glittery - pink or purple and green
4 - Picnic tea play set - pink
5 - Doctors or nurses (yay for doctors!) medical play set - pink (like real lady doctors have)
6 - Vanity hair/beauty play set - purple/pink
7 - Pink hair dryer play set
8 - Nail art play set - pink
9 - Wireless unicorn toy
10 - make your own unicorn figure craft kit

This is all signed in on my app, but I’m the mother of a son who bought him dolls and a kitchen and avoids pink for the kids I buy gifts for (and never buy them from eBay) - so I don’t think it’s affected by my history on it. This certainly bore out the article’s findings for eBay.

RomanyRoots · 23/12/2018 22:26

Can't get worked up about this, I was determined not to fall into the trap,and am raising my dd to see past this.
She had all those toys as a child and lots of others, they all play a part in their development.
I have family that raise their girls as little princesses, it gets on my nerves but you can't change their minds.
You can only make sure you raise your children to know the difference no matter what the advertisers tell us.

ScipioAfricanus · 23/12/2018 22:31

But Let Toys Be Toys are also altering the way advertisers behave - which is great, considering children can’t normally tell the difference between advertising and truth until aged 8 and they are influenced by peers as well as their parents.

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