Testosterone levels - facts and figures

[AspieAndProud]

Free testosterone levels aren’t the only differences between men and women when it comes to sports and they very likely aren’t the most important anyway but they are always the first point raised in a discussion so I was wondering if anyone had hard facts and figures.

I don’t just mean average differences, I mean some kind of table that would compare non-sportsmen, sportsmen, non-sportswomen and sportswomen, at different ages, and also include things like standard deviations as well as averages.

I’m guessing this info is out there but I’m having difficulty finding it.

It’s my understanding that the average testosterone levels for a woman is not just way below a man’s but that the difference is a matter of many standard deviations. In other words the normal levels of testosterone you’d find in men are likely to occur in so few women that they are statistically unlikely to exist.

Anyway, hope I phrased that right and people know what I’m getting at...

The reason I asked about standard deviations is that people who want to deny differences always object that there’s some variation within the sexes. It would be interesting to see how much variation there actually is.

And I’ve distinguished between ordinary people and athletes for the same reason. If women sports stars have higher testosterone than other women, how much? And does it come close to make couch potatoes let alone make athletes?

Male couch potatoes.

And male athletes. Bloody iPhone.

My testosterone level is 1. Most women are between 1-2. Some a tad higher. It cannot be right to compete against someone who has 10 times as much. 2x or 2.3x but not 10x.

Biological males also have higher haemogloblin levels.

I've only glanced at this but it seems to have some of the info you are after.

I recall Mrkrtake2 discussing the high level of women with CAIS in professional sports....

Damn damn sorry wrong link obvs.
..... And now I can't find the damn thing.....

@MaidOfStars might be able to help, she's very clued up on this.

My T level is 0.9. What might surprise you is that I am transsexual.

But you reach this after some years and post surgery - not taking a few hormone pills - as, to be crude, if you keep the source of T production in your body when you self ID into 'being a woman' then you never can reduce it to female levels. Fairly obvious.

As Aspie says T levels are not by any stretch the only difference that is important. And it is ridiculous not to take the others into account too as they are no less significant and less alterable.

But as you can see, unless you also insist on GRS, which seems unlikely given the trend to self identify ID without need for any medical steps, and/or you have natal low T levels in the first place, then this move to make transwomen fairly compete with women is totally dead in the water.

They cannot even compete fairly with transsexuals on this one measure if they have had surgery so these levels are clearly even more unfair for women.

At a bare minimum several other factors have to be taken into account and a handicap scale created around them to minimise the obvious advantages of a male body.

Not sure even that would work but just using T levels that are higher than most transsexuals and pretty well all women is an insult to hard working women who train all their lives.

Covers a lot of issues but really worth a read: fairplayforwomen.com/sports/

I few on my to read list: www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/naturally-produced-testosterone-gives-female-athletes-significant-competitive-edge/

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323085.php

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/11/4328/2836760

Also Testosterone and Athletes, Mark Pillay.

Thanks lass that was really informative.

It's not what you're asking for but I presume you saw this? Posting again anyway.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1070097483408248835.html

There seem to be something many differences between the sexes.

I've been having issues with asthma and did some googling around what might improve peak flow (happily flute playing which I can do but rusty!) and saw some research on swimming being used to improve peak flow in elderly people. It worked for the men but not the women. I think the conclusions as to why were inconclusive, but can't quite remember.

(Peak flow measurements are hugely different between the sexes from the teen years.)

It's not what you're asking for but I presume you saw this? Posting again anyway.

Yes, that’s a good read. Short and to the point too.

This is a pretty clear read that gives a lot of information about testosterone levels and the impact of testerone on performance. It discusses the long term benefits of having male levels of testosterone even once the level has been considerably reduced. It also links to quite a few studies and a table comparing testosterone levels.
fairplayforwomen.com/tw_in_sports/

From the BMJ article above:

These regulations stipulate that affected individuals must be given hormone treatment to lower their testosterone levels if they wish to continue in competition. CAS ruled in 2015 that the IAAF regulations should be suspended unless or until evidence on the impact of circulating androgens on sporting performance could be found to back the approach.

How is it fair that women with unusually high - but natural - levels of androgens are penalised at all?

There’s a world of difference between being a man with low testosterone and a woman with high testosterone.

I don't know about that research obviously but in the bbc doc "no more boys or girls" (about harmful gender stereotypes) they went to significant lengths to say that there was no difference between the sexes in strength if the individuals were matched in height / stature.

They asked a group of children to order themselves according to how strong they thought they were. The boys put themselves at the front and had an argument over it and the girls mostly at the back.

Then they tested strength on a fairground hit with a mallet to ring the bell thingy. Many girls surprised themselves and one boy who thought he was the strongest really wasn't, was beaten by some girls and couldn't cope and had a huge meltdown (demonstrating the issues with feeding boys a constant narrative of brave, strong, the best, invincible etc and girls as fragile/ weak/ not strong etc).

It starts to change at puberty but pretty early on.

(Though I appreciate I'm undermining your argument E, at the same time I often feel it's important for primary children to understand they can physically achieve equally.)

I have read quite a bit about this but can't be bothered to dig up the links at the moment.

Anyway, essentially anything up to 2 nmol/l is normal for a woman, but the typical female athlete has 0.5 nmol/l,.

Anything above 2nmol/l is someone who has an illness, essentially, or is a man, or is intersex.

The main illness causing heightened testosterone is PCOS. Here levels up to 5 nmol/l are basically possible. But 5 nmol/l is very rare even with PCOS, and I think you would be quite ill at that level - it would indicate a tumour.

At more typical PCOS levels say 3 nmol/l you would get symptoms such as hirsutism.

The male level I think is around 15-40nmol/l. As I understand it, Caster Semenya has 30 nmol/l testosterone.

I don't remember the level, but there is hyperandrogenism in men, essentially a LACK of testosterone where you'd probably want to take supplements. But men can do fine with fairly low levels.

But anyway the male levels aren't that important, the issue is that women who aren't disordered are going to have

Thanks for some great answers.

Slightly off topic but worth a read regarding role of testosterone in childhood and puberty

sarahockwell-smith.com/2014/06/09/why-the-huge-testosterone-surge-in-young-boys-is-a-myth-and-what-really-causes-their-behaviour-to-change/

Key chart