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Original poster

Drunk consent

33 replies

powershowerforanhour · 20/12/2018 23:27

I can't stop think about that thread about the killing of Natalie Connolly. Her blood alcohol level was in the "coma/death" bracket and the expert witness said he had never seen such high levels of alcohol and cocaine together. Even her killer admitted she was talking gobblegook and crashing into things and falling, unable to save herself from injury. Basically completely helpless. But the judge said he couldn't be sure that she didn't consent to the beating and violent sex that contributed to her death.
So how drunk do you have to be to be considered incapable of consent beyond reasonable doubt? If you're falling down, hitting-your-head drunk, incapable of coherent speech and not far off lapsing into coma and death but its considered that there is a reasonable possibility that you consented (to any sex let alone extremely violent penetration with an object and a battering) then how drunk is too drunk to consent? How far down the Glasgow coma scale do you have to be? Actually dead?

OP posts:
WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 21/12/2018 02:37

It's abhorrent OP. There's no question she could've given consent to any sexual activity whatsoever. But hey ho she was a sexually active woman who indulged in substance abuse so I guess she was guilty of contributory negligence or provocation, or poisoning the well or some other terrible female crime and she probably got what she deserved.

That man ought to be doing 30 years for sexual assault, negligence and murder. It's so fucked up.

treaclesoda · 21/12/2018 02:45

Reading news report after news report these days I'm not sure if actually dead would even matter. I think it won't be long until we see a man in court say that he had sex with his dead partner because she had always had a fantasy about it, and the judge will say 'ordinarily that would be illegal but for a man of good character like you, how can we be sure that you weren't just fulfilling her wishes...' Angry

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 21/12/2018 03:02

Alleged 'consensual rough sex' is the new get out of jail card. A woman can be strangled, suffocated, stabbed, have her throat slit. All with impunity apparently because "she liked it rough Your Honour".

RosaFreedman1983 · 21/12/2018 03:55

The Sexual Offences Act Section 74 defines consent as 'if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice'. In the case of R v Bree [2007] the court looked in great detail at capacity to consent where a person is drunk, and made it clear that drunk consent is consent if the person retains the capacity to consent. However, each case must be decided on its specific facts, and it is important to emphasise that a person who is conscious does not necessarily have the capacity to consent. The CPS Code states that prosecutors should carefully consider whether the victim/survivor (albeit they call it 'complainant) had the capacity to consent. Consent at the beginning of sex does not mean that consent continues throughout sex -- consent may be withdrawn, or a person may lose capacity to continue to consent. It is important to note that just because a person has previously consented does not mean that the other person can assume consent in the same or similar circumstances.

I would encourage anyone interested in the law in this area to read the relevant chapter in Smith & Hogan 'Criminal Law'.

Cherries101 · 21/12/2018 04:16

Another example of how a rich white man can get away with murder. If the man who killed Natalie had been black he would’ve gotten life. I hope there’s an appeal.

Shockers · 21/12/2018 05:01

I hope there’s an appeal too. He sprayed bleach in her face- how the fuck is that rough sex? The man is twisted- he admitted he wanted to, “teach her a lesson.”

I can’t believe that such a level of violence- leading to death- could result in a 3 year sentence.

RosaFreedman1983 · 21/12/2018 05:19

The sentencing remarks in the case (where the judge sets out the legal reasoning) can be found here: www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-v-john-broadhurst-sentencing-remarks-of-mr-justice-julian-knowles/

charis · 21/12/2018 05:48

Holy fuck, I couldn't finish half of that. But a twenty six year old woman is described as a 'bubbly girl' in the first bit and the next thing I read was that he bought her a car and helped her financially. How the hell is that relevant?

He's framing her as a gold-digger / prostitute isn't he? Move along, no crime here. FFS Angry

charis · 21/12/2018 05:53

I've skimmed a bit but interesting how his language changes from the more clinical 'buttocks' to describe injury sites to 'bottom', which is in my mind sort of infantilising and reminiscent of Carry On films. Maybe I'm over-thinking it but it minimises it somehow. "Oh it was only a snack on the bottom. Saucy!"

deepwatersolo · 21/12/2018 07:11

There is no standard high enough for proof, when the victim is a woman. That is how it looks to me, sometimes. There was the case of Rehtaeh Parson in Canada. Drunken party in some boy‘s home. There was video of the assault, from which it was clear there was a basically passed out woman that was raped. It was clear who took the video, (and from what I Remember it was even clear who did the raping). The victim went to police. she was bullied cause the video made the rounds. The video was secured by police. But the video did not show the girl‘s face and she herself said she was so drunk that night she barely remembered anything. So how would she know she was raped?
Rehtaeh changed schools and eventually committed suicide.

Zwischenwasser · 21/12/2018 18:51

Im speechless about this

Our local news has been full of a chap who’s just been sentenced for 8 years for raping a man recently.

Now it’s a fucking awful crime, and I have every sympathy for the victim. And 8 years probably seemed way too lenient to him and his family. But it shows the discrepancy.

Raping a man gets you 8 years. Kill a woman whilst violently attacking and raping her 3.

Thethiniceofanewday · 21/12/2018 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

crunchermuncher · 21/12/2018 21:42

That is appalling. You wouldn't be considered to have capacity to consent to medical treatment in that state. You couldn't sign a legal document or get married (even taking prescription trabquillizers can render you 'not of sound mind'). But apparently you can consent to a beating whilst passing out drunk. Why is the standard for capacity not the same ? It makes no sense.

deepwatersolo · 21/12/2018 21:47

Why is the standard for capacity not the same ?

We all know why. And you can't identify out of it.

Thethiniceofanewday · 21/12/2018 22:25

I have reported my previous post as it is not correct. Hopefully MN can delete it.

SlowlyShrinking · 21/12/2018 22:53

Is it possible to consent to being beaten in any other situation, or is it only during sex that this is possible? Not that I think she consented or was able to consent

MrsTerryPratcett · 21/12/2018 23:30

Is it possible to consent to being beaten in any other situation

Martial arts. In which case you absolutely wouldn't be allowed in a ring drunk and it would be stopped if the ref thought you were in danger of being beaten to death.

But a drunk woman... she clearly doesn't deserve the same consideration. Angry

Ereshkigal · 21/12/2018 23:42

There was the case of Rehtaeh Parson in Canada

Oh yes that was a disgusting and horrifying case. And some fuckwit TRA in Canada wrote an article saying that they had it worse for being misgendered. I don't think that article exists any more, but it absolutely did. I read it.

Ereshkigal · 21/12/2018 23:46

Is it possible to consent to being beaten in any other situation, or is it only during sex that this is possible?

The Spanner case was ruled out here as irrelevant.

brizzledrizzle · 21/12/2018 23:48

Drunk consent doesn't exist except in the ridiculous laws.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/12/2018 00:00

Rape myths predominate yet again in determining women’s treatment by the justice (sic) system

Worriedmummybekind · 22/12/2018 00:04

Yes. I couldn’t understand this either.

As I understand it they couldn’t go for murder because it was partially the alcohol that contributed to her death. But if she was so drunk it helped kill her, then how could she consent to anything. Never mind the fact that you aren’t allowed to consent to GBH and above.

So surely CPS should have gone for manslaughter and rape (since she couldn’t consent as too drunk to sex or ABH for that matter).

Someone at CPS has seriously messed up somewhere surely?

AhhhHereItGoes · 22/12/2018 00:13

It's beyond vile.
I think a little giggly is fair enough consent wise especially if with a long term partner.
But if your clumsy, slurring, confused or acting out of character then I'd say consent cannot be freely given.

vicviking · 22/12/2018 06:07

Absolutely sickening. Sadistic murder. No more no less. That poor woman.

Threewheeler1 · 22/12/2018 06:54

WitchBitch
Alleged 'consensual rough sex' is the new get out of jail card. A woman can be strangled, suffocated, stabbed, have her throat slit. All with impunity apparently because "she liked it rough Your Honour".
Yes, this. How many times now have we seen this being accepted as a plausible reason for the actual death of a woman?
It makes me so angry. The justice system does a good job of showing women they have little value, even in their most vulnerable state and even in death Angry