So upset by commercial surrogacy

[Soggiemoggie]

Considered posting this in AIBU but thought I might get some deeper more sympathetic discussion here...

I know it's a topic that really splits views but I am so upset to hear about distant family friend who has adopted a baby through commercial surrogacy in the US (they live here in the UK). DM told me a about this a few months ago and this week said she's seen photos of the baby and another family friend has visited them. DM has expressed (privately to me) that she thinks it is a horrible thing for the baby and that is equates to buying and selling of women's bodies. I wholeheartedly agree with this view. They happen to be a gay couple and before anyone calls me homophobic - I don't care a jot about that and it doesn't change my view at all that this is such an entitled and selfish act. I don't believe it is a human right to have a baby and if you can't have children of your own for whatever reason, why not look into adoption or fostering for the many children who are already in this world and in dire need of a loving family and secure home?

Anyway when my DM mentioned it again this week and I asked how old the baby was now and when she answered, for some reason I just burst out crying in front of DM and DF. So embarrassing (!) But I just had this overwhelming upset feeling thinking about the baby away from his mum and his mum who god knows how she must be feeling.

I myself have a 8 month old DS (PFB...) so obviously such strong feelings about this are because of my own bias about being a mum to a helpless tiny baby and having my whole universe revolving around DS...

So Mumsnetters please share your views on commercial surrogacy, tell me it's OK to be distraught at the thought of this, or tell me to piss off for being so judgey...

Sorry this is so long - I really needed to get that off my chest!

Should lesbians (or single women) be allowed to adopt children because there should be a father figure in the child's

, I think a lot of father figures carry out domestic violence on their spouses. Are we still on 2 women a week murdered by men in the UK? Wonder how many of them were father figures. You have to look as domestic violence state when deciding if it's worth bothering with a father figure-- let's not forget domestic violence often begins in pregnancy

"stats" not "state"

Children need mother figures but not father figures because lots of father figures commit domestic violence? Ridiculous.

Of course violence against women is huge problem. Using that a reason gay men shouldn't be allowed to be parents is insane.

There was a thread on Twitter recently where a guy seeking a surrogate referred to 'looking for a carrier'. Cue a plethora of replies from women explaining why this term was awful, which he defended by saying its the legal term used by surrogates themselves. No consideration of the fact that this demonstrates the structural patriarchy of a legal system that refuses to acknowledge that women bloody well grow a baby and the internalised misogyny of the women who use the term

"Once you let go it’s the best experience. I would recommend surrogacy for everyone"

Blessed be the fruit.

The cognitive dissonance is great with these two. I pity their children.

Many women are perfectly able to rationalise the difference between their child and a child belonging to another couple that they have given birth

Ugh and double ugh.

Firstly, the woman hasn't just given birth to the child, has she? She has created, grown and given birth to the child. In other words - and however much you may want to 'rationalise' - she is that child's mother, whether or not it is genetically hers.

And the child does not 'belong to another couple'. At least not under the laws here in Britain as they currently stand. The child belongs to the person who gestated and give birth to it - ie, the mother, unless she gives up those rights several weeks after birth. Though I strongly suspect you would like to change all that to make it easier for the commissioning couple.

Most people are horrified when it comes to surrogacy, and I know a (very wealthy) heterosexual couple who were infertile and they explicitly said no to any form of surrogacy after several failed IVF attempts. They adopted instead. He's a lovely 18 year old boy now.

And the child does not 'belong to another couple'

Children don't actually 'belong' to anyone. Parents have responsibility for their children and have rights flowing from that. They don't own them.

"Belong" is a very telling phrase.

Much as I deplore anyone questioning why a poster is posting on FWR it's a bit rich that JeanPaget, who as far as I can tell (apology if advanced search isn't working) hasn't posted at all before this, is querying why I am.

In other words - and however much you may want to 'rationalise' - she is that child's mother, whether or not it is genetically hers.

It has nothing to do with how I want to rationalise it, and everything to do without how the surrogate and commissioning couple feel about it. Telling women that they have to feel a particular way because that's how you would feel is patronising and fails to recognise women's agency.

I'm sorry you don't like me posting here Lass 💁‍♀️

I'm sorry you don't like me posting hereLass

You are good at spin and twisting aren't you? May I remind you that you are the one who questioned why I was posting.

I'm not trying to spin anything.

I am sorry you think I'm not entitled to post here because I haven't posted enough on FWR previously.

I'm not quite sure where those rules are, who put you in charge of enforcing them nor how anyone is supposed to get involved in feminist issues though...

I queried why you post here if you couldn't care less whether an issue is sexist. Which is an entirely different, actually substantive, question.

Telling women that they have to feel a particular way because that's how you would feel is patronising and fails to recognise women's agency.

Don't get me started! Yet TWAW is all about how men feels like it is to be a woman.

How it is to be a woman is a biological reality, nothing whatsoever to do with 'feelings'.

It has nothing to do with how I want to rationalise it, and everything to do without how the surrogate and commissioning couple feel about it.

Can I just clarify this?

You are saying that the woman who gestates and births a child is not that child's mother providing she 'feels' that way? So fundamental biological facts are unimportant when compared to feelz?

A bit like how a person with a penis can be a woman provided he feels that way?

If that's the case, well, I feel like I'm a millionaire 1m70 drop dead gorgeous Hollywood actress! Have the private jet on standby please!

Yes, I absolutely individual women are entitled their own feelings about pregnancy, birth and the nature of motherhood. Dismissing those women's thoughts and experiences as "feelz" is ridiculous.

I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with transwomen but I'm not surprised that we can't have a discussion about real issues affecting (biological) women on FWR without it becoming all about trans issues

Yes, I absolutely individual women are entitled their own feelings about pregnancy, birth and the nature of motherhood. Dismissing those women's thoughts and experiences as "feelz" is ridiculous.

Oh sure, they can 'feel' whatever they like. I can 'feel' that I'm a world renowned beauty married to Chris Hemsworth if I like. That doesn't mean that my 'feelings' cancel out observable reality.

I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with transwomen

I would have thought it fairly obvious but since it isn't I'll clarify: "Feelings" do not override basic biological realities. Ever.

Oh and I see you haven't answered my question:

You are saying that the woman who gestates and births a child is not that child's mother providing she 'feels' that way? So fundamental biological facts are unimportant when compared to feelz?

I am sorry you think I'm not entitled to post here because I haven't posted enough on FWR previously

You are at it again. I said nothing of the kind. I found it ironic that your second post on FWR was querying why I was posting. Do you want a reminder of what you posted?

Ok. I do wonder why you're posting on FWR if that's how you feel about sexism mind

What I "feel about sexism" is that your point was spurious.

Wherewearenow I feel exactly the same.

And Lass the way I understand what you have said is that how anyone who has gone through a pregnancy and birth and fully understands the brutality and dangers of the experience could ever think that it was fair to subject another woman to the same thing while also stealing her baby from her, is a really difficult thing to fathom. However, I think anyone who buys a baby and denies the baby of its human right to be with its mother is equally bad.

I queried why you post here if you couldn't care less whether an issue is sexist. Which is an entirely different, actually substantive, question

More twisting. What I said was I could not care less if you thought I was sexist. I think your points are spurious.

It just seems so brutal and transactional.

Yes, because it is.

commissioning couple

That is such a revealing term.

So fundamental biological facts are unimportant when compared to feelz?

You seem to have misunderstood the conversation. We were discussing why a mother who later uses a surrogate is (apparently) particularly evil.

A PP stated "She knows what it feels like to feel a baby move inside her ; she knows the excitement and anticipation of looking forward to meeting her child for the first time; she knows the silly conversations you have with your unborn child; she knows the nonsense nicknames you make up for your child; she knows about wondering if your child can hear and enjoy the music you like; she has experienced the unforgettable moment of holding her child for the first time."

I said actually not all women feel that way about pregnancy and that's fine.

I'm not trying to deny any biological realities. Just defend the rights of women to have opinions about what pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood means to them without being accused of being more evil then men who have thoughts on the same issues. Because you know, that's sexist as fuck.

I'm not trying to deny any biological realities.

You are if you are not accounting for our very complex endocrine system which puts a lot of our connections and bonding beyond our control. You can’t say how you’ll feel until it’s too late with pregnancy, and a lot of those feelings are so common and considered normal, for want of a better word, because our bodies are designed that way. To make strong connections in a short space of time. My concerns with surrogacy are first and foremost with the child, and with the biological mother, planning for worst case scenario when it comes to what we legally and morally allow. The risks are too great to endorse this practice in my opinion. I don’t care how many feel good stories people care to share here. This is a practice that gives entitled rich people more power over poor women. I can’t, as a feminist, ever support such a thing.

JessicaWakefield I think the misleading language is intentional. Commissioning couple or just ‘baby buyers’ is much more accurate than intended parents.

You seem to have misunderstood the conversation. We were discussing why a mother who later uses a surrogate is (apparently) particularly evil.

Well no. You said:

Many women are perfectly able to rationalise the difference between their child and a child belonging to another couple that they have given birth

So basically, a child which a woman has created, gestated and given birth to is not 'her' child because she 'feels' that way. Which is obvious nonsense. Biologically it is certainly her child and always will be, even if she later decides to forego legal rights to it. How she 'feels' cannot change that.

Because you know, that's sexist as fuck.

I think you need a different line of argument other than trying to accuse those who oppose the commodification of women and children of being 'sexist'. That's such a tired old line, and as you've seen, not a single person here is falling for it. Just as we don't fall for the closely related 'prostitution is a woman's choice' line of nonsense either. Try harder.

*commissioning couple

That is such a revealing term.*

I was going to say 'purchasing parents', but that's not quite true in this country.

Yet.