So young and it's starting already...

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplands]

DD is 10 and generally since starting school her friendship group has always been mixed M and F although she's always gravitated more towards boy friends than girls. I wish she had more close girl friends but that's a different thread!

She spoke to me this morning out of the blue about "rumours" at school involving her and one of her boy friends (as in boy who is a friend!(. Apparently this boy (let's call him Fred) "loves her more than just friends " and he's asked DD on a few occasions who at school she would kiss! She so far has laughed it off and said no one but since then he's started acting differently towards her - putting her down in front of others, kicking her chair leg in class. Always when there is an audience but acts normal when it's just the two of them.

So I've given her some strategies for now as she needs to nip it in the bud and explained that if it's true she doesn't need to change her behaviour to save his feelings but maybe to cut him some slack for a day or too incase he's feeling embarrassed. I've told her if it continues, to speak to him one on one and ask him why he's behaving like this.

So I know it'll pass but just wondered if I'd approached it right with her. She adores Fred as a friend but at the same time I don't want her to think she has to put up with a stroppy pre-teen much longer just to be nice. Oh forgot to say she asked another trusted friend who said they thought Fred felt the same. I'm aware it could all be playground bollocks too Also aware I'm probably over thinking on her behalf but it's the first time she's approached me to talk about something on her mind.

She said no to him and now he is reacting.
His actions aren't about thinking the world of her, putting her down and kicking her chair isn't the way friends behave.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3322589-Saying-no-to-men

Thanks for the link ROwantrees, that's depressing. I'm going to read it properly later. Agree it's not how friends behave.

Its also a really good opportunity for your daughter to discover something thats really important which will have a huge effect on the rest of her life.
Many of us only come to this realisation later.

Its how girls develop an excellent 'shark cage', very empowering:

www.psychotherapy.com.au/fileadmin/site_files/pdfs/SharkCage.pdf

see also current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

I've heard of this vaguely but yes I'm going to think of a way to talk about that with her.

Once I'd posted it dawned on me that in the grand scheme of things this is v v trivial compared to every other thread on this board so I was (and still am!) prepared to be suitably flamed. Thank you for not!

I'm aware the window of opportunity for me to influence her and her to want to talk to me is shrinking as she approaches high school so it's important I help her realise now that it's not her job to just submit and be nice when something makes her uncomfortable because that's what girls are supposed to do. At the same time I hope Fred gets over himself and back to being her friend

You're over thinking. First off the boy is 10, so a child not pre teen really. Second, I would tell her to get him to one side and tell him off. If they are friends she should be able to say "knock it off or we aren't friends anymore".

Once I'd posted it dawned on me that in the grand scheme of things this is v v trivial compared to every other thread on this board

I don't think it is trivial.

Finding a way to empower and educate girls better so that they have secure boundaries is so important. Its key to protecting them in the future as well as challenging the cycle which leads to male pattern control and abuse.

I think the freedom programme have a publication coming out for children.

Sorry x-posted with ROwan reply with shark cage.

Ifnotnow probably over thinking I know and yes wrong choice of words he's actually a year older so still very young. Unfortunately she doesn't like to hurt anyone's feelings often to her own detriment so I think it's important I help to push back a little.

Your reply ROwan articulates perfectly what I've tried and failed to verbalise myself, thank you.

It is not trivial. Boys who behave like this grow up to be dangerous men if not shown it is unacceptable. Please ask your daughter to get a teacher involved. No one has any excuse to treat anyone else like this, feeling low or not.

Thanks Squall. I'm hoping with support she can try and have a go herself first but that's definitely an option if it doesn't work.

Oh absolutely you need to help her to push back, I agree. I have the same problem, in a way, with my son in that he let's people treat him badly sometimes. If you are naturally a peacemaker it can be very hard to confront bad behaviour so I do sympathise.

Thanks If! Will find out soon how she's got on today.

Embarrassingly, my mild, compassionate, autistic (then-)teen son was bloody awful to a girl who turned him down. It made me realise that there were relationship things that we really needed to cover specifically and not leave to chance.

(He's older and nicer now.)

Thank you OP for this. As R0wantrees says, it's critical that our daughters learn how to be assertive. They understand the kind bit and the empathy bit - which is why the Relationships board is so full of women hopelessly yearning after men who have cheated and treated them appallingly. What we often don't get is that self aware assertiveness that enables girls and women (and gentle boys and men) to stand up for themselves and not accept 'bullying' behaviour but to insist on mutually respectful relationships.
So not trivial at all.

No, it's not trivial. I see this as young as Y4 - the "who's got a crush on who" nonsense causes all sorts of rumours, whispers and arguments. Last year it boiled over into full-class disruption and unpleasantness, from a Y5 class that was otherwise placid, well-behaved and usually a pleasure to work with.

I started a long, ongoing conversation with my DD1 when she was 10 about positive relationships. At 13 she's now able to intellectually pick apart a coercive control situation in a book (she is currently snorting in disgust at Twilight) and is beginning to apply the theory to her own relationships. It's hard work as a parent - the last thing I want to do is put her off relationships altogether - but ultimately I think it's as important as teaching your toddler that fire is hot and roads are dangerous.

Lancelottie sounds like your going to bring up one of The Good Ones

Feminist definitely and I really wish it's a conversation I'd had with my mum at DD age. I look back at some of my early relationships and see so many examples of gaslighting. Oh, to go back and talk to my 12 year old self!

Silent your DD sounds amazing! I'm encouraged that mine wanted to talk to me about it at all so I'll keep drip feeding conversations in about it. I think your right it's a long ongoing one!

Thanks, I hope so. I'm having similar discussions with DD in a sort of gentle drip-feed, though she'll probably ignore me totally in the throes of her first romantic passion.

cheers. She is ace, very sensible head on her shoulders. Of course we have the additional "benefit" of seeing a close relative's marriage fall apart in front of our eyes due to coercive control. I don't recommend it but hey, every day's a school day

One tip I would pass on for deconstructing unhealthy relationships is to listen to music with them, that's kind of how we started. Saying things like "but...is that what the girl wants? Does that sound a bit...bossy/grabby/thoughtless to you?" definitely sows seeds of doubt about these very controlling representations. And it can be funny, too. There's a track from a few years ago which exasperated me - something like "I can be a better boyfriend than him" and I said (to the radio, in a sarky tone) "but mate, she doesn't fancy you!" which caused much giggling and a chat about the girl's right to say no and have boundaries. It doesn't have to be heavy duty, it just has to be there and renewed often.

THere was an interesting converstion on R4 'The Listening Project' when an Aunt was encouraging her neice to consider how girls and women need encouraging and practice saying, 'no'.

It was interesting. Not least that whilst the younger woman saw how comparatively more equal hers and other women's lives were, she did not recognise the sexism that still pervades.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001l7f#play

Silent that's a good idea especially as we're often in the car too listening to the radio, although more often than not she's mortified at my Mum Singing!

Thanks ROwan I'm going to look at that properly later today. I'm a bit embarrassed to say I've found more resources on MN from people like yourself to help me have these conversations, than I've had to hand my adult life! So thanks for taking time to point these out.

In terms of the Fred situation .., his mum got in touch to ask if the kids were ok so I glossed over some details and focused on the playground gossip. In the meantime it seems all's back to normal however the "Who would you kiss" thing has been asked again yesterday so I've suggested next time he asks to tell him "Please stop asking me that as it's making me uncomfortable " and if it happens again go to the teacher...then we'll see how it goes.

Just wanted to update you lovely MNers as your advice has been v helpful

It's not trivial.

My friend's daughter was 'in a relationship' at ten (yes ten) where the boy was expressing how he didn't want her to talk to other people!

"I've told her if it continues, to speak to him one on one and ask him why he's behaving like this." That sounds fine but I think I'd also ask her what she wants to do. Does she maybe want the teacher to talk to him with her there or you there. Certainly if this continues I'd treat it like any other unpleasant incident at school and involve the teacher.

She doesn't want to kiss him, he feels angry and wants to show how he doesn't really like her anyway. Not nice behaviour. He needs to know now that that isn't acceptable and she needs to know others will support her and that she can trust her own judgement.

thanks

Your doing a good job and it is definitely not trivial.

Sorry that thanks should have been flowers