DM: I believe I'm proof no man can truly become a woman

[TimeLady]

A poignant story in the Mail today

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6493959/Transsexual-warn-reality-transexual.html

Some insight into 1970's perspectives/ portrayals from a previous thread

OP Sunkisses wrote about BBC 'Open Door' program on transsexualism:
"I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

Fuck those line dancers!

Absolutely! There is just not enough support out there for people who do not fit in, if they are not causing problems. There are also some lovely people out there who run clubs and societies and care about people who need supporting too as they bring people together.

I read on the other thread that Leanne had problems getting this piece out there. It is totally worth reading, has chimed with a lot of people out there, so I hope it has been worth the hiccups and that there is more to come.

@R0wantrees, I looked up the 1980 documentary referred to in the article, What Am I? Absolutely fascinating. Really interesting to notice the change in the language since then, and the dogma of today. Some of the male transsexuals on there referred to themselves as male, or "he" and there was none of this modern dogma that "transwomen are women" that trans activists are futilely trying to make people repeat/believe nowadays. This insistence that we must repeat a lie is the absolute crux of all the tensions now, I believe. I know transsexuals exist, I have been friends with one for 20 years, and I feel enormous sympathy for those who cannot reconcile themselves to their biological sex, but I do not and will not believe people can change sex
player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-what-am-i-1980-online

Sunkisses

Ooh, thanks! I did a quick search for it and instead came across an American film from the same time period - m.youtube.com/watch?v=rnpCaWKEEVE

I haven’t watched it all yet but there is a heartbreaking story from a detransitioned man who has had inappropriate, traumatic SRS.

A cautionary tale of insufficient gatekeeping and internalised homophobia, from 40 years ago.

Fuck those line dancers!

It was clearly a very a complex, difficult and saddening family dynamic.

Not sure singling out Leanne's mum's friends (who apparently had heard Mavis talk only about her son Lee) is altogether fair.
Grief at funerals has a profound effect on reactions and perceptions.

The most important thing is that Leanne and her Mum were reconciled before her death.

I hope Leanne finds a way to use the courage she found to do this interview to carry on making connections with others.
As others have said there are lots of supportive opportunities and many ways to live well.

I'm curious as to how Leanne came to be in the TV documentary?
(extract)
"At 19, having moved away from home and living on benefits in a friend’s flat in Birmingham, she was chosen to star in a groundbreaking TV film called What Am I?, which explored the then new phenomenon of transsexualism. It was aired again recently and, by chance, she saw it.

The film, made in 1980, shows her experimenting with wearing skirts bought from a charity shop, and walking elegantly down the street in a woman’s mac and high heels.

Tall, wafer-thin and pretty, with long hair, she talks about her hopes for the future. She is also filmed with a doctor, discussing her chances of getting sex reassignment surgery and her plans to live the rest of her life as a woman."

^& have to note some of the rather florid descriptions by the journalist"

Is that Mr Whittle in the 1980 video?

My thought at the funeral was that Leanne's mum had kept the whole thing secret and her mates may have misread Leanne's appearance as an inappropriate time to 'come out'. In their heads they expected to see a male presenting bloke, so for all they knew, Leanne may have just started recently cross dressing.
It would be a tough time to process it - at a funeral. So sad that Leanne didn't have anyone- siblings, aunts or uncles to help prepare it.

Yes, that was what I thought about the funeral too. Difficult time to process anything unexpected.

Certainly seems to be.
Jackie to Steven , Manchester Poly , self-confident sort, all points at Professor Whittle.
Correct me if Im wrong

Not sure singling out Leanne's mum's friends (who apparently had heard Mavis talk only about her son Lee) is altogether fair.
Grief at funerals has a profound effect on reactions and perceptions

Absolutely.
Still though, it’s a funeral. You suck it up and force politeness for a couple of hours and then process it however you like in private.

Losing your mum is a life changing moment for almost everyone - you can disapprove of a person’s lifestyle as much as you like, but I still would expect considerable empathy in that exact moment.

I’m aware that I’m making my ‘fuck you’ judgement based on a second/third hand story, however (and admit, I might be prejudiced against line-dancers 😂) so I would be prepared to revisit my opinion in light of more evidence.

Based on the Mail’s interpretation of Leanne’s version events, I stand by my comment!

From this, and posts on other threads this week, it seems to me that a form of 'self-acceptance' (so to speak) plays a part in the treatment for dysphoria. Almost more than any physical transition, which I'm starting to see as more a case of treating the symptoms not the cause, IYSWIM.

A clumsy analogy - you can take painkillers to make you feel better, but just doing that won't address the cause of the pain, and may make it harder to treat the cause.

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

As Leanne's Mother was 80, I expect the other line dancers were a similar age so were probably quite confused?

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

Well, it's certainly the best known, but that doesn't mean it's the best that could possibly exist. I can readily believe that the kind of psychoanalytic treatment that would have been tried in the 70s-90s wasn't much use. However, when I've tried to look up trials of Cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) for gender dysphoria, I haven't really found anything. This more modern approach would, IMO, be more likely to work, at least for some cases, but it would need to be tested, and the current climate will be preventing that.

It didn't help Leanne, did it?

Line-dancing tends to be a multi generational activity, so while I did momentarily assume that the friends were elderly, I questioned my assumptions before posting and decided to check my prejudice 😂

It didn't help Leanne, did it?

Which is why it's important for professionals to explain the risks before transitioning, yes. You can find stories of people being worse off after any medical intervention (yes, that even includes vaccination).

How many people would continue to suffer with gender dysphoria if we didn't help or allow anyone to transition?

Sunkisses
Thank you for the link. I watched the documentary.

Its a reminder of times which were more openly sexist and homophobic.

I believe that some in the medical profession have not always acted in the best interests of their patients.

But transitioning seems to transfer the suffering from the individual with the condition onto other people, particularly their loved ones and dependents. Surely it's time to find a more socially responsible treatment?

FamousPJ

Why should best practice for one type of dysphoria (eg gender) differ so completely from treatments for other types of dysphoria?

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

It doesn't mean people can change sex.

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

As medics recently stated in a letter to the BMJ:

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

(I’m already being a digressive pest on this thread so I may as well also mention that April Ashley’s dog is gorgeous)

Betty I thought the same

We needed proof that no man can truly become a woman?

It should be clear to anyone with some basic knowledge of biology and human anatomy.

As long as science can't grow new hands or eyes for those who have lost body parts, they can't create female sex organs for a man, or vice versa.

It is baffling that some people don't seem to grasp this simple fact. We accept that dentists can only give us fillings and fake teeth, but not regrow our real teeth, but science is supposedly far enough advanced to make people change sex?

Even without any knowledge of biology, one should be able to deduce from all the other things science cannot do that a sex change brought about by modern medicine it is rather unlikely.

"Gender dysphoria" is about not liking how the biological sex you are is treated in modern society.

Sex dysphoria, a term rarely used, would be about not feeling comfortable in your own body.
Common sense says that a very poor copy of what you allegedly want is not likely to make you happy.

Most young girls who want a pony would probably not be very happy to be given a bike and be told that they can go places with that, too.

They might be happier with a rabbit, seeing as it is four-legged and furry and they can pet it, which is at least three things a horse is instead of just one.

However, I don't think gender surgery really concerns itself with what people want to achieve by getting a poor copy of the other sex's body. So it is unlikely it will make anyone happy.

Even without any knowledge of biology, one should be able to deduce from all the other things science cannot do that a sex change brought about by modern medicine it is rather unlikely.

This argument is irrelevant. The facts are, (1) some people have gender dysphoria, and (2) allowing them to live as their preferred gender is the best treatment in most cases. Whether or not they are technically the gender they identify as is a useless discussion.

"Gender dysphoria" is about not liking how the biological sex you are is treated in modern society.

You know how I'm constantly told that because I'm not a woman, I shouldn't talk about women? Yeah, if you're not a transperson, I think you should refrain from trying to tell transpeople what the cause of their gender dysphoria is.

Also... there's absolutely not a shred of evidence for what you've just said.

So it is unlikely it will make anyone happy.

Well again, I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery, instead of trying to tell transpeople what would and wouldn't make them happy!