Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

If research finds no significant differences for sport for male & female, where will that lead?

85 replies

CrazyToast · 11/12/2018 22:27

I read today that Loughborough has recruited 5 PhD students to research the gender binary in sport. Could be fine, you may think. But look at the advert.

"One of the most influential, powerful and visible institutions upholding the gender binary is sport – where participation is predominantly segregated by biological sex, rooted in the widely-held beliefs about fairness and the biological advantages associated with being male. Such beliefs are over-simplistic, legitimise discrimination, and hinder the sports participation of transgender (intersex, trans, non-binary) individuals. With the rapidly growing societal visibility of transgender people, there is an unprecedented need to address areas where discrimination may arise."

Combining the above statement with other research which suggests 'most policies unfairly alienate transgender competitors based mainly on an unsubstantiated assumption that transgender females possess an unfair sporting advantage.'

NB this is Bethany Jones who recently said that women could just try harder in sports if they didn't want to be beaten by men

There is now a push against testosterone testing in women's sports for trans women, and also to scrap sex categories in sport altogether.

If this happens, then it is essentially saying there is no relevant physical difference between males and females. What could this mean for wider life outside of sport?

Could sport be paving the way to undermining sex-based differences in the same way as self -ID?

What if the research does find that there are no differences? What are we to make of that?

www.researchgate.net/profile/Bethany_Jones5

OP posts:
deepwatersolo · 11/12/2018 22:38

What are they going to do? Erase decades of sports statistics? Brand These statistics as hatespeech and whoever mentiones them as KKK-level evil?

HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 22:40

If it continues like this, I will just invade the pedestal at any given competition and tell them my gender identity is medal winning woman, and they have to give me the gold medal to validate my identity.

I have no patience left for this shit.

Melanippe · 11/12/2018 22:41

I would ask to see the raw data, because it will have a lot of 0 and 5 endings.

AssassinatedBeauty · 11/12/2018 22:41

They can't and won't. If they do publish something that claims there are no differences then they will be promoting a falsehood.

I mean, it's basic biology and physiology, it's not complicated.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/12/2018 22:41

Most research centres men and their bodies to the exclusion of women- it’s a way of men looking after men under the guise of science - unfortunately it looks as though more funding has been obtained to continue that insidious pattern of wilfully ignoring women and girls

AspieAndProud · 11/12/2018 22:49

There’s no gender binary in sport.

There’s a sex binary.

If they are going to compare the performances of men who identify as men with men who identify as women they aren’t going to find any differences.

If they are going to claim this result shows there aren’t sex differences in performance they are just plain lying.

Original poster
CrazyToast · 11/12/2018 22:55

You'd be amazed about what 'scientific research' can find when it is biased. I have no doubt they will find what they want to find, sadly. I just hope that making it easier for trans women to play sports doesn't come at the cost of women achieving in sports.

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/12/2018 22:56

Having glanced briefly at her publications, they all seem to describe self report (interview and questionnaire) studies. That sort of research might tell you lots about how people think about sport but has nothing whatsoever to say about objective performance differentials between the sexes.

donquixotedelamancha · 11/12/2018 23:01

Such beliefs are over-simplistic, legitimise discrimination, and hinder the sports participation of transgender (intersex, trans, non-binary) individuals.

Christ on a bike it really pisses me off that these people can claim to be Scientists. It should be a sacking offence to so such ridiculous bias in your research.

ReflectentMonatomism · 11/12/2018 23:15

It’s a basket weaving research group. The sports people at Loughborough will laugh at them. That said, it seems extraordinary however if they actually have five funded studentships; that’s the best part of a three hundred grand. Where is the money coming from?

Imnobody4 · 11/12/2018 23:35

The state of research in this country is in a dire state and everyone knows it. This needs raising with someone not sure who.

BlindYeo · 12/12/2018 01:05

I'll be up there with you Hestia. I'll settle for silver.

They've started. blog.lboro.ac.uk/doctoral-college/2018/11/15/doctoral-researchers-represent-lboro-at-diversity-in-sport-conference/

I can't see who's funding them. Perhaps someone else can have a hunt. Usually funding bodies' names are slapped on everything, aren't they? But as we know, there's a lot of trans money sloshing around. Now they're going to try and get faux respectability through 'research'?

Is trans is latching onto disability/para sports for this latest chapter? The poster for the conference the students attended has a picture of athletes in wheelchairs at the top. Does anyone else think that's odd and not a little offensive? Or maybe it's about time those with physical disabilities realise they're not as disadvantaged as transgender people. Hmm

It was also a free conference. Interesting.

Perhaps they're just going to avoid the basic male/female sports stats deepwatersolo and go for the oppression olympics approach. And yes, I can imagine they will start saying male/female stats are hate speech or something.

I am so angry on behalf of female athletes.

gcscience · 12/12/2018 01:41

If research finds no significant differences for sport for male & female, where will that lead?

(Proper peer reviewed research). This won't happen, because there is already a wealth of information to show that there are significant differences.

Testosterone has been shown to affect a minority of cellular transcript types. In other words, most sex-based differences are actually to do with the presence of XX vs XY chromosomes (the presence of particular genes in single or double copy) rather than to do with how testosterone modifies the expression of those genes. There are exceptions, mostly to do with secondary sexual characteristics, which testosterone/oestrogen powerfully regulate.

Like the "transed" children who will sue their doctors in ten years' time, the takeover of women's sport by men is a problem that will come home to roost in ten years' time.

CharlieParley · 12/12/2018 02:24

There is already a vast body of international research into the physiology of males and females, of male and female athletes, of performance and the success of training methods and so on. Our elite sportsmen and women are supported by sports scientists who are drawing on this research and once this becomes a mainstream concern (once we reach critical mass where speaking up doesn't cost you sponsors or funding or your reputation or selection to the team), these athletes and their national teams will fight back.

Secondly, the existing research on the issue at hand - how males who claim womanhood fare after they start taking testosterone suppressants and/or cross sex hormones - to date is extremely limited and does not currently meet the criteria of properly controlled studies.

Take for instance the study that has caused most of the problems to date - the one involving eight (!) runners and self-reported competition results.

Race Times for Transgender Athletes by Joanna Harper, 2015

All eight and the author are men claiming womanhood (MCW), non-elite runners and were/had medically transitioned. Although the author detailed the shortcomings of the study (of which there were many), shortcomings which should result in understanding this study as an interesting perspective on the issue and a starting point for much better research, it has actually been used both by the author and various other people to claim that once MCWs take testosterone suppressants ALL of their advantages over women are erased and therefore MCWs should be allowed to compete against women. The author seems to be an adherent to the belief that the only advantage men have over women is testosterone.

If you look at the study, it's actually horrifying anyone should have taken this seriously for even a second. Self-reported race times over a period of seven years from eight runners. Half of the reported times could be verified online.

No information is supplied on exactly what the medical transition entailed, how much or how long for the testosterone was taken, the fitness levels and training regimes prior to transitioning etc. Although there is an acknowledgment that some participants didn't train as hard after medical transition, lost motivation etc., this is glossed over in favour of stressing that collectively all eight were slower after transition. The hypothesis here is that these eight runners lost their male advantage after taking hormones.

One of the most striking aspects is that it compares race times posted at different ages. For instance there's the time posted as a 24 yo being compared with the race times posted after that individual transitioned and competed again age 53. 26 yo vs 53, 22 vs 36, 49 vs 56 and so on. Performance levels do actually drop off substantially as we age, so it's surprising that this wasn't discussed. Instead one individual who started training a lot after transitioning and then performed better after transitioning is discussed, of course (probably with a view to explain away that fact).

Hardly surprising - even I managed to run the 2K faster aged 35 than aged 18 because I started running three times a week and walking on the other days whereas as an 18 year old I tried everything to get out of having to run which in any case happened at most once a week and I never tried to get a good time. But to ignore the age aspect with the other runners who were stated to train to the same extent, is just one problem of many with this study.

And yet, it was used to inform IOC policy. (But it flew under the radar then while awareness is growing now.)

CharlieParley · 12/12/2018 02:29

I should add that the age difference was deemed acceptable because the author used a statistical method that allows the comparison of results across different ages, ie the 24yo result was compared to other 24yolds men and the 53yo was compared to 53yo women. BUT the point is that as we age, we tend to perform worse. So the study tells us little about how elite male athletes transitioning in their prime may compare to female athletes in their prime.

Igneococcus · 12/12/2018 06:20

Five PhD students? Are they fully funded?
In the meantime I watch an Institute I have a close association with going through yet another round of redundancies in a desperate attempt to balance the books. Five good scientists, all working on sea ice, or ocean acidification, and similar stuff, have lost their jobs there this year, but there is money somewhere to fund this sort of bollocks.

deepwatersolo · 12/12/2018 06:35

Hey BlindYeo maybe their point about para olympics is that those should be abolished and all those athletes with a handicap should just try harder in the standard competitions?

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/12/2018 07:12

What's the point of this?

If it proves there are differences it wont ever be allowed to be published .

And if it says anywhere that there's a drop in performance it wont matter if they are proven to still be different because thatbone sentence will be all TRAS need....

Knicknackpaddyflak · 12/12/2018 07:17

The brief makes it clear what the findings are intended to be and the purpose they are wanted for. Worthless before it even starts.

MsBeaujangles · 12/12/2018 07:46

The bias is very clear from the framing on the research. Why bring transgender in to it at all. If the issue is sex segregation in sport, examine the appropriateness of this and do not contaminate it with notions of gender.
If the issue is what to do with people who modify their sex characteristics through medical intervention, explore the ethics of that but don't pretend it is an issue relating to innate sex based differences!

Ifonlyus · 12/12/2018 07:58

I haven't read other responses but my first thought is, haven't they already got loads of data to show the effect of the biological differences between men and women?

Ifonlyus · 12/12/2018 08:00

Five PhD students? Are they fully funded?
In the meantime I watch an Institute I have a close association with going through yet another round of redundancies in a desperate attempt to balance the books. Five good scientists, all working on sea ice, or ocean acidification, and similar stuff, have lost their jobs there this year, but there is money somewhere to fund this sort of bollocks.

It's maddening when considered like that. Sad

Ifonlyus · 12/12/2018 08:00

Bold fail.

NotTerfNorCis · 12/12/2018 08:07

It's incredible how this drive for stopping sex segregated sports is taking off. I've seen right-wing men push it with a sneer - 'well you wanted equality didn't you' - but most of it is from the left, in the name of 'trans equality '. If it happens, sport will be destroyed for women. Right now, even mixed competitions like marathons have male and female categories.

Ifonlyus · 12/12/2018 08:10

The annoying thing is, there are so many sports one can participate in that are not segregated by sex. I don't get the problem at the recreational level. Which leads me to believe it is about power and infiltrating the top level sports to knock females out the way and put us back in our place. How dare we do well at something when there are makes 'failing ' at being males. We need to make sure they can feel superior by being better 'women' than us.