How to discuss the need for feminism without an argument

[PinkAvocado]

I’m having a chat with a family member about how patriarchy and sexism exists. He completely denies it does and says that men face more challenges (suicide and murder rates etc) than women. He says that there isn’t much pay difference amongst most of the population and that men have a harder time with domestic abuse because reporting it is so hard and the systems don’t allow it.

Where do I even start?

I think you start by saying feminism helps everyone. Men don't have dangerous jobs because of feminism - quite the opposite. Men don't have high rates of suicide because of feminism - in a less patriachal society, men might feel more able to express feelings and get help rather than trying to 'be a man' by keeping silent. Women don't get the vast majority of child custody because of feminism - again, the opposite. A less sexist society wouldn't just assume women should be caregivers. May or may not work as a non-argument tactic, but I think these are important points.

When you find out, let me know. I end up telling them about all the women I know who've been sexually assaulted and how the only person I know whose assault was investigated by the police is the male victim I know. Oh and that they can shut the fuck up.

It is so difficult! He immediately went for the defensive ‘not all men’ and is so closed minded about it.

Echobelly-I will certainly keep trying that approach.

I don’t have a problem with acknowledging that patriarchy can be harmful for men too.

As for child custody - as far as I’m concerned, the role of the family courts is not to side with either party but to consider the best interests of the child. More often than not, it’s still the mother who is the primary caret. I would have a lot more time for MRAs if I saw them campaigning for family friendly working practices to enable fathers to pull their weight in the home.

I tend to roll out statistics

He is likely looking at these:

www.menandboyscoalition.org.uk/statistics/

but they tend to ignore these:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/

www.refuge.org.uk/our-work/forms-of-violence-and-abuse/domestic-violence/domestic-violence-the-facts/

Then there are all the stats relating to how well men do across their lifetimes, the shocking worldwide stats of violence perpetrated by men and so on. Just give facts...

But also ask if they would trust for their wife, daughter or mother to walk home late at night. if not, ask why. Question if men's violence is about their inability to cope in the world or their inherent violence - it has to be caused by one or the other. both need sorting out and preferably by men themselves.

In the meantime we need feminism.

basically - when you stop being violent towards us, we can talk about whether feminism is still needed. Until then, you don't even get the right to ask the question.

TBH card carrying misogynists like that aren't worth your time.

He obviously likes the incel/male supremacist/antifeminist version of things- It is so easy to gaslight a woman when Patriarchy is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for you.

What a dick.

TBH card carrying misogynists like that aren't worth your time.

This.

It is obvious to any thinking person that almost all the problems men face are created by ... men.

Whereas most of the problems women face are also created by ... men. What a surprise. Not.

If you still want to talk to him, ask him why does he think that there's so few female prisoners and so many male ones - if women are just as criminal as men, but so very, very, very clever at escaping the police, then why are women not more successful in politics and career?

Have a look at man who has it all on Facebook or Twitter and see what he thinks to that.

Maybe see if he can answer this one, from today's Times (so pat MRA answer may not yet have been formulated):

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-brilliant-women-get-overlooked-qzqn8mpnt?shareToken=2be516d8411ca90a13b8ee669be37fbe

I think echobelly has it, however, the chances he'll listen to any of these is pretty unlikely.

There's a really interesting clip of Trevor Noah talking about the #MeToo movement. If your'e interested, I'll track it down. But basically, he talks about how important it is etc. Then towards the end, he admits that even though he absolutely believes women, he finds as a man he instinctively finds himself thinking, "I need to be careful in case a woman accuses me of something." But then he basically slaps himself down and explains how this teeny tiny risk is NOTHING compared to the well documented risk of women ACTUALLY being sexually assaulted.

For me what was interesting though was that even a really strong feminist man like him feels this instinctive fear. And he's smart enough, educated enough, thoughtful enough to realise he's being an idiot.

Sadly, unless you can get men to watch and buy into his argument, it won't help you. But I found it very interesting and enlightening.

But then he basically slaps himself down and explains how this teeny tiny risk is NOTHING compared to the well documented risk of women ACTUALLY being sexually assaulted.

He could also do what women do to avoid sexual assault and not be alone with women he doesn't trust.

Perhaps that would help him understand better just how much women's lives are impaired by this constant need to have to watch out for male violence.

I think saying feminism helps men is a slippery slope to the shit we're in - bloody WHAT ABOUT MEN???!!!!

It is perfectly fine to centre and focus on women. Men have dominated the world for long enough.

@hestiaparthenos - I'm not really sure what your response is about. In the clip, and I tried to explain it, he's pretty clear that the little voice in his head is an idiotic one. Because he DOES get it and was annoyed with himself for that thought.

Trying to pretend men (and many women) don't THINK these things is pointless. I'd rather they stopped to think about their instinctive response, realised it was silly, and adapted their behaviour accordingly.