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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Church of England transgender blessings

111 replies

howonearthdidwegethere · 11/12/2018 14:33

You'll never guess what...

The policy announced today was drawn up by...three transwomen (who are priests), at least one of whom describes themselves as a trans lesbian.

The guidance was compiled in consultation with the Rev Dr Tina Beardsley, the Rev Sarah Jones and Canon Rachel Mann who said in a joint statement: “Collectively, we have sought to ensure that these new pastoral guidance notes provide a rich and generous space for trans people to locate their lives in the existing liturgy for the affirmation of baptismal faith."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/church-offers-blessing-to-transgender-people-qfzznztx7

In the meantime, the CofE won't marry gay couples.

OP posts:
vaginafetishist · 12/12/2018 19:33

That was a rabbi, I can't remember her name. Laura something?

R0wantrees · 12/12/2018 20:09

O apologies.

SwearyG · 12/12/2018 20:18

R0 a female vicar did write a piece in Church Times pointing out that women’s rights are impacted by trans ideology. The letters in response were woke beyond belief (one writer had both her children transing - wtf?). She does thought for the day sometimes too. Worth keeping an eye out for - her name is Angela Tilby.

vaginafetishist · 12/12/2018 20:23

Yes the woke branch of the C of E were wringing their hands over Angela Tilby's very mild piece on the GRA. Angela Tilby is old school and not the sort to worry about what people think of her.

vaginafetishist · 12/12/2018 20:27

That article in the Telegraph! Refusing to wear a dress again as an indictation of being trans/non binary/really a man/gender queer.
Just don't wear the dress ffs! Parents, stop forcing dresses on your daughters. Watch Fried Green Tomatoes or something.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 13/12/2018 07:52

Rachel transitioned as an adult and I think Rachel also identifies as lesbian... I have met Rachel and found Rachel likeable and respectful.

Identifying as a lesbian isn't at all respectful though.

I'd also just like to say good morning to the monitors watching this thread.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 13/12/2018 09:00

If Rachel isn’t married Rachel oughtnt to be having sex.

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 09:31

R0 a female vicar did write a piece in Church Times pointing out that women’s rights are impacted by trans ideology.... She does thought for the day sometimes too. Worth keeping an eye out for - her name is Angela Tilby.

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/19-october/comment/columnists/angela-tilby-my-worries-about-the-trans-lobby

SwearyG I have a memory of a female academic (English Literature?) who was also part of the clergy and wrote a significant article earlier this year (Spring)
Can't think who she was.
I don't suppose you know?

Dragon3 · 13/12/2018 09:46

There’s also the fact that we’re a pastoral organisation and on the level of individuals it makes sense to be sensitive and welcoming.

YY. This is true and good. But I just don't understand the official celebratory sparkles for transition.

It doesn't make sense for the church to take such a positive position. Transition isn't an inherently good thing. It is complicated and nuanced. It could potentially harm the transitioner and hurt those around them. Not to mention transgenderism's inherent misogyny and homophobia.

On an individual level we know that people are complicated and that the church welcomes everyone. But unpleasant opinions shouldn't be affirmed at an organisational level IMO. A neutral official position would be so much more appropriate, with welcome on an individual level. The church should leave this alone.

SwearyG · 13/12/2018 09:57

SOrry R0 no clue. Will have a think and a dig.

vaginafetishist · 13/12/2018 10:20

Totally agree Dragon3 . The church shouldn't be doing this.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 13/12/2018 10:21

Have they defined transition though?

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 10:24

SwearyG
Dr Alison Milbank (Nottingham University, Southwell Cathedral)
Theology & literature (specialises in Gothic Literature I think)

She wrote an article, 'Usurping the Feminine: Frankenstein & 'Male' pregnancy' in March. It was, from memory, a very nuanced literary article based on Mary Shelley's writing.
Some TRAs incl. Guiliana went after her and also her husband, John Milbank.
The article was censored.

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 10:31

apologies as Southwell is a Minster (not sure if also a Cathedral)

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 11:16

Always useful to be aware of Pink News coverage:

'Church of England tells clergy to respect trans people’s affirmed names'
Sofia Lotto Persio 12th December 2018,

The Church of England has issued new guidelines on celebrating the baptism of transgender people.

The document, titled “Pastoral Guidance for use in conjunction with the Affirmation of Baptismal Faith in the context of gender transition,” was approved by the House of Bishops and published on December 11 on the Church of England’s website and will be incorporated into Common Worship.

The need for guidelines on the matter of gender transition was raised during the General Synod of the Church of England in July 2017, which passed a motion calling for “the preparation of liturgical materials to mark a person’s gender transition.”

The new guidelines state the Church of England’s “unconditional affirmation of trans people” and advise ministers to “respond sensitively and creatively to the person’s circumstances,” reminding the clergy to respect believers’ individual wishes on the matter of their gender identity.

“Trans people are as diverse as any other social group and ministers should avoid stereotyping. It is appropriate, however, to identify the preference of a transgender person in respect of their name and gendered (or other) pronouns. It should be noted that the term ‘transgender’ is typically preferred to transgendered,” the guidelines read.

Another point reinforces the need for the ceremony to have a “celebratory” character, respecting the person’s preferences with regards to mentions of their past.

“It is important that the occasion should have a celebratory character, and in preparation for the service, the minister will wish to meet with the candidate to understand better their personal journey. The minister should be guided by the wishes of the candidate regarding the way in which past experiences may be mentioned or reflected upon, either in the introduction to the service or if the candidate is to share their testimony,” the guidelines read.

Church of England guidelines written by trans clergy members
Among the recommended Gospel readings for the rite, one of the most important ceremonies in Christianity, stands out one passage that reinforces the idea that a person’s gender—or ethnicity, or social status—does not matter when it come to baptism.

“There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus,” states the Gospel reading, Galatians 3:27-4:7.

The trans clergy, Reverend Dr Tina Beardsley, Reverend Sarah Jones and Reverend Canon Dr Rachel Mann, produced the guidelines following consultation with those directly affected and their clergy.

“For me the most important thing was actually having this certificate to say that I had renewed my baptism vows and it had my chosen name on it,” Reverend Beardsley told the BBC.

The Bishop of Blackburn, Julian Henderson, Chair of the House of Bishops Delegation Committee, that oversaw work to produce the guidance, said in a statement: “This new guidance provides an opportunity, rooted in scripture, to enable trans people who have ‘come to Christ as the way, the truth and the life,’ to mark their transition in the presence of their Church family which is the body of Christ.

“We commend it for wider use.”

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/12/church-of-england-clergy-transgender-affirmed-names/

OldCrone · 13/12/2018 11:20

Alison Milbank's article which the TRAs got removed:
archive.is/Kx813

vaginafetishist · 13/12/2018 11:25

Very interesting R0

vaginafetishist · 13/12/2018 11:28

Thanks OldCrone!

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 11:33

Old Crone Thank you. Its good to be able to read it again.

Madhairday · 13/12/2018 17:47

vaginafetishist what do you think the chances are of any feminist response to transgenderism within the church? The female priests mostly seem very woke.

Yy to this, as an active feminist Christian I've seen a lot of this. I came across this the other day though which has some good stuff - but again from a more conservative (evangelical) source. Scroll towards the end - lot of stuff about women's rights, some actual research been done. Mentions things like detransitioning, interventions for children etc, mentions transgender trend. Interesting...

www.eauk.org/resources/what-we-offer/reports/transformed-understanding-transgender-in-a-changing-culture/transformed-the-resource

But the voices on the more liberal end tend to be on the woke side. I feel quite lonely in there.

Potplant2 · 13/12/2018 18:00

In a similar vein, this is a theologian I disagree with on just about everything (notably, he is very conservative on sexuality). However, I can’t find much to disagree with here:

www.psephizo.com/sexuality-2/wisdom-and-folly-the-bishops-guidance-on-transgender-welcome/

SwearyG · 13/12/2018 18:00

Mad there were representatives from EA at the parliamentary debate a couple of weeks ago. They are very concerned about the impact of self ID on women and girls.

Madhairday · 13/12/2018 18:05

Potplant he's a friend of mine Grin but yes, he does tend to polarise as he isn't afraid to say stuff he knows people won't agree with.

Madhairday · 13/12/2018 18:12

Sweary, yes, that does come across in the resource, I think it's excellent.