That transman boxer story

[QuietContraryMary]

It's been reported gleefully that a transman won a pro boxing match and this proves the equality of men and transmen yada yada.

Typical report here thesource.com/2018/12/11/transgender-boxer-victorious-in-historic-debut/

The defeated opponent boasts the pro record of six losses in six fights.

boxrec.com/en/boxer/490128

Patricia Manuel once claimed to be a 'proud butch lesbian' www.outsports.com/2012/2/14/4052584/proud-butch-lesbian-aims-to-make-u-s-olympic-womens-boxing-team

Patricia won dozens of fights as a woman.

Now he is a proud heterosexual man, obviously. Who takes steroids as 'hormone replacement therapy'.

The reality of an elite athlete who is FTM standing zero chance of dominating versus men while mediocre MTF athletes can easily dominate versus women tends to get lost among all the 'stunning and brave' rhetoric

I mean the patsy who lost here is a complete non entity, whereas Patricia Manuel had independent coverage in her own right.

Snacks a bit of Bobby Riggs Vs Billie Jean King or whatever.

I've seen men complaining about this - the winner took steroids! But this is nothing compared to the likes of Fallon Fox competing in women's sport.

I'm not a.boxing expert but 'professional' doesn't necessarily mean that much?

I don't see any particular fairness issues with a female who takes steroids to achieve male hormone levels to compete against men, providing the hormone levels aren't excessive. But really it's a red herring, transmen cannot compete against elite men.

And hormone-based definitions of eligibility that ignore the individual's hormone levels from birth puberty etc and just pretend it's only the last 12 months are obviously ridiculous.

It may also be worth noting that of all sports, boxing is (I think) the most subdivided by weight. 'Super featherweight', I read, is up to 130lb.

As has been said by a PP the opponent could not have been easier. Watch this space. I doubt the transman will ever face a contender.

The optics were good for the transgender movement though!

There will be some (perhaps many) crap-to-mediocre male boxers whose butts Nicola Adams can kick in the boxing ring.

Put her in against the elite male equivalent, however, and they'd pulverise her.

Any success is down to drugs, aka doping.

Not interested in any sport which condones that.

The booing in the crowd said it all.

Testosterone is a banned steroid. Curious how it wasn't an issue in this case.

All it proves is that doping is acceptable in that sport.

Elite female athlete plus steroids can clearly beat a rubbish man. I don't see this case as being any different.

I'm more interested in the trans guy who was great at I think it was triathlon?
I think I read that in the ultra stamina sports the gap between men and women narrows. So 100 km runs etc.

No the trans guy wasn't great at the triathlon.

There's a lot of heat and not much light with these stories. Looking at raw data is the way to go.

Chris Mosier for example 'placed second in his age group' www.racetecresults.com/results.aspx?CId=16247&RId=2200 (35-39)

However that was still behind men in the 55-59 and 60-64 age groups. And more importantly behind five other biological women, two of whom were older.

Kirsten Sass beat Chris by 14 minutes - a huge margin, but Kirsten is just an amateur with no stunning, brave rhetoric etc.

Moser gets lots of publicity for being a transman, but none of Mosier's achievements stand up to scrutiny against elite females, let alone elite males - it seems to be more a case of using lots of qualifying events, age groups, etc. to create an illusion that transmen are the same as men.

This is what male hormones or steroids can do to the female physique

www.google.com/search?q=Andrulla+Blanchette&client=tablet-android-samsung&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLUz9U3MI8vy8hVgjDTc5OztfgCUouK8_OCM1NSyxMriwEEnrpaKAAAAA&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj-Yfhq5rfAhVB2qQKHXuED_0Q_AUoAXoECAoQAQ&biw=768&bih=1024

Women can be masculinised
men cannot be feminized in an equivalent way

mary
You're a canny lass and no mistake.

I should have known to read between the lines!

Wordthe
Yes and no. Certainly facial hair, loss of "feminine" fat deposits, and an ability to put on muscle.
But look at some of these testosterone ridden women next to an actual man. Way shorter, much smaller skeleton, smaller head, hands, feet, etc.
Trans men only pass in 2D. In real life they don't. And female bodybuilders rarely look like they do in competition. They've dehydrated themselves and starved themselves to get their body fat to suck a low %, probably taken something to increase vascularity, and dyed themselves orange (the tanning is to increase contrast).
I've known a few and dressed they just look like quite fit and healthy women, no sign of the ripped muscles really.

such a low %

And this is the woman in question, years later: link

But look at some of these testosterone ridden women next to an actual man. Way shorter, much smaller skeleton, smaller head, hands, feet, etc.

That might mean that in a sport with very strict weight limits such as boxing, they might have a bit more muscle than a bloke with heavier bones?

The booing in the crowd said it all.

Not cheered as stunning and brave?

In a sport with strict weight limits such as boxing there is a good chance a female's reach is shorter than the equivalent weight male's. The lighter weight categories, there might be an argument for mixed sex fights, but I wouldn't support it. Women have less muscle, women on testosterone can build muscle but have smaller lungs, less stamina, and a shorter reach. A woman's skeleton looks different to a man's, the proportions are different, the female torso is shorter, legs are longer, shoulders narrower, hips wider, head smaller, etc. I'm fat, so would be in the same weight class as Anthony Joshua. No thanks, not even if I consumed Asterix the Gaul- sized goblets of testosterone potion..I'm several classes above Manny Pacquiao, and he'd pulverise me.
Men are just stronger than women, there will always be some outlier, especially where testosterone is concerned, it doesn't disprove the rule.

Obviously I was not suggesting that steroids would change your stature/give you a bigger skeleton but they can give you a level of muscularity reaching equivalence to a man with the same size frame.

I do realise that, even comparing men and women with the same height and weight men will tend to have broader shoulders and narrower hips which gives an upper body strength advantage

a level of muscularity reaching equivalence to a man with the same size frame
Which is why trans men pass in 2D. The proportions are slightly out, but the visual signifiers all say male. But personally, if I see a trans man out and about I wonder why a lesbian has a beard before I realise it's a trans man. I should imagine most straight people would see a man but assume some kind of developmental disorder. Most men are not 5'3" with wide hips, even if they do have a beard. Even taller trans men look female to me, personally.
Because there's no perceived risk to men from short beardy people there's less awareness, plus men get looked at a lot less than women do, by both women and other men. So again adding ammunition to the argument that trans men pass, when they don't, by and large.
Which is all beside the point - in this instance the individual chose to compete, in a one on one bout. I don't think the fight should have been approved, but there you go. There's a lot of funny goings-on in boxing, and indeed all sports fighting.

Most men are not 5'3" with wide hips, even if they do have a beard
too right!
I'm not intending to disagree with you, just it seems to me that it's a bit easier to masculinize a woman than feminize a man (will I get banned for any of those terms??) neither are likely to 'pass'

DS and I are the same height at the moment (obv I think I'm taller, he thinks he's taller). He's 14. He is stronger than me - as I found out trying to joke wrestle the remote control off him. I'm heavier and 30 years older and no match for him at all