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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The situation in France?

28 replies

TynSoldier · 02/12/2018 14:00

I've just got back from a holiday with a British friend who now lives in France.

She's been aware of my views on self-ID and was and is generally supportive of the GC view.

However, one bar we were in had women's and men's toilet cubicles but within a unisex toilet, so the sink area was shared. I ended up washing my hands next to a man and when I got back to my friend I told her and said I thought it was uncomfortable. She said she didn't see the problem with this set up, and that it's quite common in France to have to walk past men with their penises out pissing in France to get to the women's cubicles. She says that it's a shock but that you get used to it, and that it's not a problem. I said I don't think women should have to get used to it, and I didn't want it happening in Britain.

But is it true that this is the situation in France and there are no problems?

OP posts:
Absentwomen · 02/12/2018 14:01

I was brought up in Belgium in the 80s. Unisex toilets were the norm.

MoggEatMoggWorld · 02/12/2018 14:05

There are massive misogyny problems in France.

Original poster
TynSoldier · 02/12/2018 14:06

And was it a problem, Absentwomen?

OP posts:
Original poster
TynSoldier · 02/12/2018 14:12

I can only read the first few lines of that article but the photo speaks for itself 🤢

OP posts:
museumum · 02/12/2018 14:19

It is very common in French restaurants in ski areas to have sink then urinal then cubicle (or two cubicles marked hommes and femmes if you’re lucky).

Why they don’t put the urinal in the far corner is a mystery, I bloody hate squeezing past pissing men.

Bigger public loos seem to be split fully like here, it’s just cafes and bars with only 1-2 toilets that have the oddly placed urinal.

Grace212 · 02/12/2018 14:23

When I was annoyed by the pop urinals (that sounds so wrong!) in London, my friends told me that type of thing is really common in Europe and since then it's been mentioned on MN a few times, and the thing in France was posted here before too.

Absentwomen · 02/12/2018 14:24

@TynSoldier,

For my father, I remember it was a huge issue. I was 12. He had a massive issue about the use of public unisex toilets for me.

I'm for women-only spaces. What I don't like is how the TRA ideology is they have a right to our spaces. I think what we are seeing is very different from a discussion on unisex toilets. Often the 'disabled toilets have been in UK for years argument' is used by TRAs. Again, that's wrong. Disabled toilets are single use.

Grace212 · 02/12/2018 14:24

*pop up urinals even!

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 14:31

It is very common in French restaurants in ski areas to have sink then urinal then cubicle

I think that's common all over France. I used one like that in Normandy not so long ago.

WrathofbubonicKlop · 02/12/2018 14:46

Toilets in Dutch campsites are often unisex.
Never seemed to be a problem, men to the right, women to the left.
We all have a moral duty to be discreet.

Men have a moral duty to be discreet especially around women and children.

Some men are not discreet.

OldCrone · 02/12/2018 14:50

What I don't like is how the TRA ideology is they have a right to our spaces. I think what we are seeing is very different from a discussion on unisex toilets.

As I said on another thread, if they want to make all toilets unisex, they need to show that the change is for the better for the majority of users, and that nobody is disadvantaged by the change.

At the moment we seem to be having to defend single-sex arrangements. That's wrong. It shouldn't be up to us to prove that we need them. It should be up to them to prove that their need for unisex arrangments is a better solution for everyone (not just them).

happydappy2 · 02/12/2018 15:22

Agree in France toilets are sometimes mixed sex, often due to lack of space. But lets face it, in any civilised establishment (swanky hotel, decent restaurant) toilets are single sex, as its more dignified for everyone.

recently · 02/12/2018 15:27

I'm in Italy, not France but the toilets are often mixed sex due to a lack of space! Even at work we don't have male/female toilets. This isn't a transgender thing though, more a "toilets aren't a priority" thing. And they often horrible, but that's another problem.

TeiTetua · 02/12/2018 19:09

You will note that in the Times picture, one of the women is prominently carrying a British Airways bag. Maybe French women aren't supposed to notice.

Is that comme il faut or comme ils font?

IdaBWells · 02/12/2018 19:19

I think the photo is a set up, he’s not really having a piss and the two women are with him (maybe relatives that are over for a jolly with him) to make a good picture.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 19:28

Is that comme il faut or comme ils font?

Good question. I think the two things are often interchangeable.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/12/2018 09:09

Ida Yes, the picture is a set up (can you imagine any one volunteering for real), but it is a good representation of what the new pissoirs are.

The whole story just shows how utterly man centric the French are: men get to piss in the streets, have special pissoirs designed for them and the women have... to go home?!

It is nothing to do with any trans situation, it is just that French men get to piss in the street with government approval if they use a nice new box.

The reason the pissoirs are nearest the door in mixed sex toilets is so the men can use them more easily. That's it. No other reason, male convenience!

Gentlygently · 03/12/2018 09:30

If all toilets are unisex and clearly marked as such, at least it is honest. It may not suit everyone, so I would prefer single sex, but you know what to expect.

I would prefer that to having a sign saying women and then being expected to be ok with ‘self-id’ women being in there.

If it is unisex, frankly I would feel protected by the general population, and not being forced to validate something I didn’t believe.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 03/12/2018 10:21

Ah. The 'yes it's a shock but you'll get used to it' defence.

Why should women have to get used to something they're not comfortable with and don't want?

What happens to the women who don't get used to it, or can't because of their personal circumstances?

If it's this normal and natural why does every political party in the UK know that openly making single sex facilities into mixed sex facilities would be political suicide with the voters?

The answer's still no.

incallthebloodytime · 03/12/2018 10:59

It's not really necessarily that they want to make every toilet gender neutral though is it

They want TW in the ladies

Women feel alarmed more so when people are in disguise, men seem to think that the women's clothing should reassure us

Original poster
TynSoldier · 03/12/2018 11:56

Yes, some good points. I would hate for unisex facilities to become the norm, but at least it would be open and honest about who is going to be inside, unlike the stealth like self-ID.

OP posts:
Frenchfancy · 03/12/2018 12:00

Yes it is the norm in France. Doesn't really bother me.

Swimming pool changing rooms are often unisex as well with everyone changing in individual cubicles.

Brel · 03/12/2018 14:34

I was brought up in Belgium in the 80s. Unisex toilets were the norm.

Really? I wasn't around during the 80's, well not actively (too young). I know by law (KB from 04/04/1953- published in 05/04/1953) it’s not an obligation for hotels, restaurants and bars but everywhere I go there are sex separated toilets. Unless it’s a very small establishment.

I know for workers it’s different, it’s an obligation to have completely sex-segregated facilities (ARAB). I know some places are pioneering gender-neutral toilets (like in the buildings of the Flemish government), but they still have the normal sex-segregated toilets (still an obligation by law).

This sub forum is sometimes a bit bizarre for me; over here they’ve recently changed the old transgender law from 2007 (forced sterilization/operation to change was a requirement). I can’t say I’ve heard anyone actively protesting (like on here) – feminist or otherwise. The only thing you occasionally read are some angry transgenders; e.g: they have petitioned the constitutional court because the new law only recognizes man/woman and not non-binary. But that’s it I think. They were also very angry after seeing the film ‘Girl’, apparently the film was bigoted towards transgenders since according to them being transgender is not a question of body but it’s in their minds or something (haven’t seen the film).

I don’t know what to think tbh. I recently saw a documentary about a doctor who transitions 300 people/year (T’sjoen or however you spell his name). Even after transitioning their suicide numbers remained staggeringly high. I think it’s more of a mental illness but what do I know. One of my friends is a psychologist that treats people during the euthanasia process (please don’t insult her, I know a lot of British people have issues with euthanasia, but I think she’s doing stellar work I couldn’t do it), from start to finish. One of her patients was a woman that was convinced that she wanted to become a man. They were aware of her addiction problems at the time (they told her, she should lay of the drugs before the operation for a while- you would think they would do a proper check but apparently no), they think the most probably explanation in her case was that she was actually suffering from a psychosis (sustained by her drug addiction) that made her think that she wanted to become a man. Safe to say after the operation, she was very unhappy. (or whatever is the correct pronoun; since she is now technically somewhat a man I suppose? But she doesn’t want to be one. All very confusing.). Her/his application was denied though.

OldCrone · 03/12/2018 17:58

over here they’ve recently changed the old transgender law from 2007 (forced sterilization/operation to change was a requirement). I can’t say I’ve heard anyone actively protesting (like on here)

Surgical gender reassignment has never been a requirement for a legal change of sex in the UK under the GRA 2004.

The change that is being discussed on here is about self-identification. At present the individual needs to have a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Do you have self-ID in Belgium?