Be nice, be guilty

[tobee]

I often see on here women on here saying that they are often being told to "be nice". But I was wondering about what people think about guilt?

Any examples you can think of where possible guilt is being used as a weapon, if you agree? I was thinking of heterosexuals guilt about being a practising gay man being a criminal offence in the past. As we will be when trans ideology is proved correct in the future, as is suggested? And the Irish bloke claiming that TERF is a British thing, which is surely racist, but he tries to get away with it because of the history of the British in Ireland?

Has anyone any thoughts about "guilt" and it's use to push the agenda? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I'm not saying anyone should be guilty btw, just it being a useful tool for TRA.

The most obvious guilt-tripping for me is the constant reiteration that simply being openly gender-critical will result in death and injury, either through suicide/self-harm, or through increased attacks by others.

With regard to the “it’s just like homophobia” commentary, it”s important to remember that the wider acceptance of gay/lesbian people has been a successful campaign, perhaps because it harms nobody. There was a simultaneous unsuccessful campaign to normalise paedophilia, which does cause harm.

Whether this push will be successful or not remains to be seen.

I agree. Think guilt is used when talking about the needs for women's only spaces such as refuges and rape crisis centre - the reply to this is usually that trans women are often recipients of violence. I would happily donate towards trans women services, as I'm sure a lot of other women would. They are needed, and I think this a solid thing GC groups could do. If they have their own spaces, why invade ours?

Plenty of women use it too... all of the "Well I have a rule always to be nice" is a slap in the face that I don't think is ever accidental. But I usually doubt that the woman saying it realises that it is her socialisation speaking - one good friend has recently decided I am 'too toxic' at the moment and has openly wondered if it because I am menopausal! I have no idea where to start with that

But I think you are right. "You are literally killing me" and all of the others, have become old, tired and meaningless to me, and many here. But to someone new to the #nodebate women who refuse to back down in the face of such utterances will still seem to be shockingly heartless, nasty.

Which is part of the reason anything GC women say sounds so aggressive and is often ignored as just another RadFem thing! Oh those angry women!!!

And then you also hear Munroe Bergdorf telling Piers Morgan he has white privilege and "cis privilege ".

Liberal people are always liable to tie themselves/ourselves in knots.

I'm happy dealing with conundrums as a liberal and have to ponder them, maybe never reach a satisfactory conclusion. But just having someone guilt trip me that I might not be in the vanguard of human rights for TRA, so just deal with it, give me everything, and right now; no thanks.

How about, ‘30 years ago people thought homosexual people, like yourself, were perverts, and now you’re doing the same to transwomen.’

Erm...no. A lesbian is a homosexual female, and transwomen are not female. Any female who calls herself a lesbian and shags/has a relationship with a transwoman is not a lesbian, she’s bisexual or heterosexual. Allowing bio males into lesbian spaces and groups, and agreeing with them that yes, they are lesbians is damaging and cruel, on lesbians who don’t want males in their spaces or to feel compelled to sleep/have relationships with them, and on the transwomen themselves, setting them up to be excluded and ignored. I’m astounded at how many lesbians use this line of attack, because they know exactly what a lesbian is and they know full well that if push comes to shove, they would never consider transwomen as shag/relationship material. I’m sure a lot of them have also felt pressured into unwanted sex with men, yet they’re pushing it onto other, younger women. Also of course it falls down on the massive fact that I don’t feel guilty for the actions and attitudes of others, and I’m not daft enough to accept our oppression being use as a stick to beat us into further oppression.

I don’t think transwomen who call themselves lesbians are any more likely to be perverts than any other men tbh, I just think they’re appropriative, homophobic sexual bullies, which isn’t much better I admit, but the truth is what it is.

I agree, but I'd change the word 'guilt' to 'shame' with that different nuance of meaning. There is a heck of a lot of shaming used tactically.

I was thinking, should we, as women "born in the right body" be walking around in sack cloth and ashes, birching ourselves perpetually, lest we forget our "cis privilege"? And then I thought "oh no, we should just burn in flames " while "enjoying our erasure"

Yes I see what you mean Knicknack

Guilt and appeals to be nice are water off a duck's back to me. I was nice in my twenties. I got over it.

Yes but it seems to be working well as a weapon to convert politicians etc.

I suspect it only works on men, and women under forty.

I don't know how we can be guilty of being born in the right body, when we have advertisers telling us our bodies (and hair and faces) are all wrong and we must buy products, have surgery and Botox to fix them

Yes but that'll probably be because we're "doing it wrong "

Layla Moran has 4 years to go, by that reckoning, @Juells. Shocked to see Dawn Butler is 49. Only a year younger than me!

Perhaps Dawn should be identifying as 10 years younger? 🤔

pollyname - count me right out of donating towards services for transwomen!
Anyway, as has been pointed out many times before, TW don't want their own services. They want ours.

'The fallacy of the moral superiority of the oppressed' Bertrand Russell. Even if someone has 'privilege' it doesnt follow that the other group is right, deserving of whatever they demand, they are not and should not regard themselves as entitled. Justice and fairness is more complex than this.

I recently heard some feminist say that no woman (she meant human females) can be described as having privilege in a patriarchy.

I am inclined to agree with that sentiment and just ignore anyone who tries to tell me I'm not allowed to stand up for my rights because of my alleged "privilege".

Pfft, I'm Catholic. We do guilt hard-core. This lot try, but they ain't got nothing on the icy glares of the little old women at church if you forget to genuflect at the tabernacle.

Ha!