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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MoJ publishes new transgender prison statistics

16 replies

QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 13:38

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hm-prison-and-probation-service-offender-equalities-annual-report-2017-to-2018

2016: 70
2017: 125
2018: 139

44 of the 124 public and private prisons (35%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners
.

  • There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a local transgender case board.
  • The number of prisoners who have already transitioned and have a full Gender Recognition Certificate are thought to be excluded. *The figures give an estimate of the number of transgender prisoners and are likely to underestimate the true number. There may be some transgender prisoners who have not declared that they are transgender or had a local transgender case board, and some who have a Gender Recognition Certificate. The prison population is dynamic and prisoners may have entered or left prisons since the time of the data collection. Details of the number of transgender prisoners were provided by Equalities Representatives in public and private prisons in England and Wales, between 27 March 2018 and 21 May 2018.

Of the 139, " 111 reported their legal gender as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. ". And of the 139, 114 identified as female, 19 as male, and 6 did not state.

Note that there are some 'gender fluid', 'non-binary' and others in the list.

"There were 42 transgender prisoners in woman’s prisons. When asked about the gender with which the prisoner identified themselves, 22 identified as female 17 as male. and 3 did not provide a response.
• There were 97 transgender prisoners in men’s prisons. When asked about the gender with which the prisoner identified themselves, 92 identified as female, 2 as male and 3 did not provide a response"

It seems that there is a bit of uncertainty/inaccuracy in the detail of these figures, given that there are

23 who claimed to be legally female, plus 5 more who did not state.

However it is my understanding that as a matter of policy unless you have a GRC (which is excluded here) FTM will not be sent to a female prison. See also this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384486-Transmen-location-in-prison

Therefore it seems that some of the 23 who claimed to be legally female are lying, given that there were only 17 (+ 3 unknown) who identified as male living in female prisons. (Note the 2

I would say therefore:

17-20 FTM in female prisons
22-25 MTF in female prisons
97 MTF in male prisons
plus unknown numbers with GRC

There have been ~3800 GRCs issued to people born male, so if there are 23 million men in the UK, that's 1 in 6,000 people. Hence with 80,000 male prison population and a male offending pattern, that's 13 MTF GRC people in women's prison, outside of the scope of these statistics.

So I would suggest there are AT LEAST 35 people who were born with penises in women prisons (based on the 22-25 figure above, plus the naive estimate of 13 more with GRCs).

Given that you will be burned in the fiery pits of hell if you disregard the holy GRC & send a transwoman to a male prison, it's quite likely that disproportionately more criminals obtain GRCs, since it is your 'get out of male jail free' card. So there may be more than that.

Anyway, this suggest that currently around 1% of the 3870 women in prison were born with penises. However they are unlikely to be distributed evenly - HMP Bronzefield is the only Category A women's prison, and has 500 prisoners.

HMP Bronzefield is of course where Jessica Winfield/Martin Ponting was sent to rape women on the government dime, and there are clearly more like him.

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uglyandlovingit · 29/11/2018 13:56

This sounds like a cry for help... they want to put a stop to it, but they need the public' support first...

Micke · 29/11/2018 14:01

* There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a local transgender case board.
* The number of prisoners who have already transitioned and have a full Gender Recognition Certificate are thought to be excluded.

This is very confusing - if they're using 'sex assigned at birth' then those with a GRC should be included.

Of the 139, " 111 reported their legal gender as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. ". And of the 139, 114 identified as female, 19 as male, and 6 did not state.

This too is confusing - they should have used clearly defined terms - do they mean legal gender (something that only people with a GRC have) or do they mean sex (at birth) as used above.

These statistics I think must be deliberately obfuscated like this - this should not be a hard question to answer.

Suzanne1964 · 29/11/2018 14:08

I'm sorry @QuietContraryMary but saying that Jessica Winfield was "sent on the government dime to rape women" is not only fake news reported by the Sun (what a surprise) but also very dangerous allegations to make and can lead to further divisions.

If you're using the Sun as your main source f news, I suggest you start reading a more reputable(factual) periodical.

Source: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-rapist-womens-prison-segregation-sexual-advances-inmates-sexual-assualt-a7932866.html

Popchyk · 29/11/2018 14:12

The Ministry of Justice's definition of transgender is very specific.

"For the purposes of this report, transgender prisoners are defined as those individuals known within prison to be currently living in, or are presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a case conference (as defined by PSI 17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders29)"

So only those prisoners who have had a transgender case board review are considered to be "transgender".

So, under MoJ rules, Karen White is not transgender. And yet was in a women's prison.

uglyandlovingit · 29/11/2018 14:14

Would a non-binary person count as transgender in that case?

Bubonicpanic · 29/11/2018 14:29

Suzzane1964

That is quite funny, you get all pompous and self righteous about the Sun and link the Indy. I had a look to see what the reputable(factual) periodical said and it's this...

However, a source close to the situation told The Independent understands that Winfield had been segregated, but not for inappropriate advances.

How is that so much more factual that it warrants such a "fake news" comment about the other information. It says bugger all.

Honestly, I'm falling about laughing.

QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 14:41

Suzanne, as regards the Sun and the Independent they both publish fake news, such as the Independent's completely 100% fake story about 'female pleasure' being banned in porn. It is not even a newspaper these days and certainly hates women as much as The Sun does. The Guardian is another newspaper that has printed utterly false defences of trans prison policy.

In any case you don't need to believe the Sun's claim (also published in the Daily Mail & in Penis News www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/08/the-mail-just-implied-a-transgender-rapist-made-unwanted-sexual-advances-because-she-has-a-penis/) to see that to lock up women with a man who raped two female children is wrong, and frankly your 'fake news' point scoring citing the shitty Independent over the shitty Sun over and above the indisputable fact of a child rapist, in possession of a child raping penis, being locked up with women says more about you than anything else.

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QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 14:47

And yes it is quite telling that the Independent felt fit to publish an entire article without any verifiable facts, in support of a child rapist purely because he identified as transgender.

Can anyone else think of an attribute that would make people post/write 'won't somebody think of the poor child rapists' apart from transgender identity?

It's hard to think of a more loathed type of criminal to be honest

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HandsOffMyRights · 29/11/2018 15:13

If you're using the Sun as your main source f news, I suggest you start reading a more reputable(factual) periodical.

Narrow minded

The irony. You do know that The Independent and The Guardian peddle some of the worst TRA propaganda don't you? The Stephen Whittle? bull was discredited by FPFW. Lazy, cowardly journalism.

The Sun has the balls to challenge and investigate. Lynsey Hope's excellent article on likening the social contagion of transgenderism in girls to anorexia is a fine piece of evidence-based and investigative journalism.

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/7362652/changing-gender-new-anorexia/

QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 16:12

I have to thank @Suzanne1964 for prompting me to re-check Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield's case.

This is from the Mail on Sunday of 3rd June 2018:

Winfield/Ponting was "sentenced for life for brutally raping two females - one an underage child, the other the disabled daughter of a family friend. His crimes must have been exceptionally serious: he was sentenced in 1995 and it is highly unusual for anyone to spend 23 years in prison for rape."

Just how unusual?

There are just two women with whole-life sentences in the UK, namely Rose West, who was found guilty on 22nd November 1995, and subject initially to a minimum tariff of 25 years, and later replaced, in 1997, by Jack Straw, with a whole life sentence.

Ponting/Winfield's sentencing date is not clear, but presumably before 22nd November.

So 'Jessica Winfield' may in fact be the longest serving 'female' prisoner in the UK, a man so depraved and dangerous he remains in prison after 23 years when some 'life' sentences can be as short as six years.

The question is when this man clearly still presents a danger to the public, why is he in a female prison?

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QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 16:13

sorry the other 'whole life' female prisoner is Joanne Dennehy, who was sentenced in 2014.

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Knicknackpaddyflak · 29/11/2018 16:17

And already we see the utter bloody mess of confusion in trying to make sense or meaning of statistics when male, female, gender and sex and non binary and other have lost all fixed meaning. It's no longer accessible even to people who speak the jargon and know the tricks. To the general public, that's the end of transparent communication of data.

MNHQ I really feel the need for an eyeroll emoticon.

Popchyk · 29/11/2018 16:49

Yep. Confusion abounds.

The MoJ article uses a very narrow definition of transgender to mean only those offenders who have had a transgender case conference.

And yet elsewhere in MoJ documents, the definition of transgender is much broader and includes all offenders who self-identify as intersex, non-binary, gender fluid or transvestite. PSI 17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders is one such document that uses the broad definition.

And from the MoJ report in the OP:

"In the 2018 data collection, prisoners were asked about their legal gender. For earlier years the gender is self-reported on reception to the prison and based on information recorded on central administrative databases. It is not possible to determine if this is the legal gender or whether the gender has changed".

QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 16:51

As I understand it case conferences are mandatory for anyone claiming to be trans, post January 2017. However this may not apply to existing prisoners. And it doesn't include GRC people who are sacred and not questionable.

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QuietContraryMary · 29/11/2018 16:51

As I understand it case conferences are mandatory for anyone claiming to be trans, post January 2017. However this may not apply to existing prisoners. And it doesn't include GRC people who are sacred and not questionable.

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Katvonblackdeath · 29/11/2018 16:59

I hope everyday is hell for you "jessica"
I have no empathy for child rapists

MoJ publishes new transgender prison statistics
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