Mumsnet moderators are struggling to find the line between free speech and transphobia

[Ereshkigal]

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/mumsnet-moderators-trans-rights-debate

Digested read: Why can't Mums stick to talking about biscuits and Ant and Dec instead of having opinions about issues which concern them? And why can't we call them goady names? And why are they so mean? And why is it allowed?

Comments from MN moderators are measured and reasonable, however.

This article uncritically presents doxxer Emma Healey who put women here at risk from TRAs as a noble whistleblower.

Other Mumsnet moderators express similar pride – although only under the cover of anonymity. Only one of the moderators I spoke with would give their real first name, two did not want to reveal their age, and none would chat over the phone. One moderator did not even want WIRED to include the year she started her job at Mumsnet for fear of being identified.

Hmmm, I wonder why that would be, Amelia? I don't think it's MN feminists they are afraid of now is it?

Another piece of poorly researched, biased nonsense.

It takes real talent to make an article about cute dogs on the internet that boring.

How bloody insulting that we get reduced to “Ant or Dec”. I am seriously hacked off about this. There have hardly been any such threads, surely, and so of all the pairs of men to choose from the journalist chose them - two Peter Pan type cheeky chappies with anodyne ‘sex appeal’, lowbrow tv appeal and a manufactured benign & non-offensive bland image (blown somewhat by Ant’s conviction for drink driving) ... 😡 The extent to which even other women like to infantalise and dismiss a group of mothers is depressing.

And this motherfucker is definitely not cis.

Grrrr....zzzzzz

It takes real talent to make an article about cute dogs on the internet that boring.

I have to say I don't find the wording cute, at all, but nauseatingly twee.

What a strange article. I'm scratching my head to see what the point of it is.

Don’t we have journos sniffing around here quite a lot? I’m sure if it was a hotbed of appalling transphobia they might have mentioned it by now, and by mentioned it, I mean with supporting evidence to back up their claims.

Keep sending people here though TRAs, you’re doing us a favour. People only ever change their opinion to agree with us, I’ve never seen the opposite happen. I wonder how many people have come here to see the horrible transphobia, stayed to read what all the wonderful and clever women have to say and realised that yes, actually we’ve got a point? The problem with such a spurious and dangerous ideology is if they can’t get the brainwashing done in time, truth and common sense can reassert itself, especially because biological sex is something so fundamental, and something we instinctively understand. Any slight interruption to the indoctrination process is fatal to the machine, so needs to be decisively and definitively squashed. MN just happen to have found themselves in the firing line of a very powerful, dangerous cult like machine. I’m sure they wouldn’t have chosen to be in this position, as neither would have any of us, but we are, so we will carry the fight.

A more realistic headline would be: Mumsnet moderators under immense pressure from trans activists to delete posts of women's concerns.

and to MNHQ. Thanks for holding strong.

The problem with such a spurious and dangerous ideology is if they can’t get the brainwashing done in time, truth and common sense can reassert itself, especially because biological sex is something so fundamental, and something we instinctively understand.

Yes!

Errol, how dull. There I was, hoping for some cute doggo videos. Goes off to find some elsewhere.

Since when did a phobia become less about irrational fear and hatred and more about debate, discourse and discussion?

The Mumsnet mods come across well there.

I notice Wired never explains exactly how Mumsnetters are hateful. If it did, it would have to tell its readers that not believing in the female penis or in letting male bodied people compete in women's sports is hateful.

The “Mumsnet posters have opinions about trans debate!” stock article is the new “Mumsnet posters talk about sex!” stock article. You could practically write them with a text generator at this point.

“Mumsnet used to be a place where [middle-aged/thirty-something/yummy] mummies could gather and [natter/chat/gossip] about [nappies/prams/haircuts], BUT NOW the parenting site is taking on a controversial new look, as discussions turn to [sex/swearing/gender identity]!”

once known primarily as a place where mums could discuss feeding routines, ask politicians about their favourite biscuits and argue about who is hotter, Ant or Dec

This just says it all. Women are frivolous brainless creatures. Women who have had kids turn into a sort of bovine automaton with no opinion on anything other than nappies.

I know many men think that anyway, and it’s usually a shock to them to find out otherwise. I do love threads where some bloke is mansplaining and a MNer turns up to say ‘actually I am an expert in 17th century Japanese military history/Tibetan textiles/rocket engine design... and you’re wrong.’

But for a woman to have that opinion ... I just don’t understand how they can. Are they do self centred they don’t speak to older women maybe? These woke girls are going to have a massive shock when they experience ageing. Or pregnancy and a difficult birth. Or twins, or just not being young and hot anymore.

They will eat the cool girls last, but they’ll still eat you.

They will eat the cool girls last, but they’ll still eat you.

Absolutely.

Of course we particularly love the threads where a TRA starts on biology and bowl turns up!

If it ever was that cosy mummy place, it hasn't been for a long time. Before self ID etc came up, my favourite board was the philosophy and religion one. Debating creationists was probably a good warm-up for TRAs, except generally they were quite sweet.

What 53rd way said. A certain brand of journalist has always relied on patronising mumsnet-inspired stories about mums on the lam to meet their deadlines. I don't know if the DM is still doing regular "betrayed!" features based on vampiring the relationships board, maybe fwr is juicier fodder these days.

Anyway, and for the mods

Agree with the text generator effect of this article.

Sadly what it may mean is that a lot of younger women think of MN as something their mums or grandmothers use, hence uncool, hence phobic of something or other. MNHQ work hard to combat this I guess.

Re the radicalisation portal aspect, I have seen a few threads headed 'Women of MN! I came here to explore the nappy discussions but I am horrified to find a nest of transphobia' but I've never found those terrifically convincing if I'm completely honest. Presumably some people do react like that. I think arriving on the FWR boards now does probably read like you're dropping into the middle of a conversation you didn't catch the start of. I can imagine some people just backing slowly away and going back to the deep intellectualism and multilayered philosophy of Twitter

Tbh, I find our reputation as a place to chat about prams quite useful in an undercover way. People tend to leave you alone if they think you're just boring, gossipy women and that gives us the opportunity to teach women to take no shit from the CFs, know when they need to LTB and manage to fight for women's rights at the same time.

Plus, in addition to an opportunity to organise subversively, you do get really gold-standard advice about prams

From the article,
(extracts)
"Susie Green, the chair of Mermaids UK, a charity which supports gender variant and transgender children, says Mumsnet “still has some work to do if it wants to be seen as an inclusive forum.”

“Constantly, we see anti-trans narratives on there. There are well known anti-trans activists that are on there that are allowed to stay,” she says, explaining that in the past she has had to threaten legal action to get Mumsnet posts that she claims were defamatory removed (continues)

For Michael, his biggest regret is “spending so much time on vexatious complaints”. Although Mumsnet moderators and their moderation policies are unique in many ways, this appears to be an experience shared by moderators across the web. “A small minority of correspondents are never going to accept your decisions,” he says. “‘Keep it short’ took a while to learn.”

I mostly find it comical, the sheer appalled shock at the idea of mums having opinions. I bet the people writing those articles still expect their mum to do their laundry for them when they go home for a visit, and possibly even come over to their flat and clean up for them.

explaining that in the past she has had to threaten legal action to get Mumsnet posts that she claims were defamatory removed

It's (ironically) not worth MNHQ's time or staff to engage with that comment but I would be surprised if that were wholly true as it stands.

I'd hope that most Wired readers have enough critical thinking to have the phrase, "Sez you" pass through...

Interesting that the uncritical shout-out enforces Emma's view of herself as a bold SJW who brought about changes that were probably the result of months of on-going meeting and discussion at MNHQ.

At some point, I'd like a journalist to address the difference between self-appointed moral crusader, a genuine whistleblower, and whether some demographics can not handle dissent from their inflexible belief in their own opinions.

From the article,
"In the past, however, a former employee has spoken out against the company’s culture. Emma Healey, who worked as an intern at Mumsnet’s press office for six months, claimed on Twitter that “there was really no attempt to keep [trans rights] discussion civil or polite”.

“Misgendering and deadnaming [calling a trans person by the name they no longer use] were completely tolerated, and the internal moderation policy would change pretty much every day,” she wrote."

Emma Healey responded angrily to discussion on MN about a workshop at NUS Women's 18, 'How to Deal With Terfs' run by her friend Rowan Davis and Eden Ladley (both NUS officers who are trans). Both close to Jess Bradley (Davis nominated JB for NUS Trans Officer)
Davies was upset by discussion of their slideshow here and asked twitter friends to intervene. I think, from memory, Emma Healey said she would sort it out as she still had friends who were mods.
thread is here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs

Emma Healey published a blog piece which though deleted by her with a 'heartfelt apology' was archived and shared widely on social media including by influencial members of political parties. The LibDEM LGBT+ Twitter account took a lead in this. It included Emma Healy's claim that MN members were calling for a 'new section 28' using as 'proof' an ironic post by a member supportive of trans rights who said 'well you could always call for a new section 28' taken out of context.

The belief that 'MN is calling for a new section 28' seems to have been absorbed by some and has traction this year given the anniversary of the act.

Dawn Butler's speech in House of Commons during special session on homophobia, biphobia and transphobia referred to a social media platform 'calling for a new section 28' she didn't name it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251616-Parliament-debate-on-homophobia-today-tweet-MP-if-you-would-like-lesbian-voices-to-be-represented

People only ever change their opinion to agree with you? Sorry on phone can't quote but said upthread - definitely not true, as I'm one who changed to mostly not when having eyes opened by a poster that it isn't all about the self ID for a lot of people - some have a problem with all transwomen and when you're shocked into realising that, you can't "unsee" it as the saying goes on here.

Sarah Ditum's speech at WPUK Bath includes discussion about
'why Mumsnet has played such an integral part in protecting women's rights'