Mumsnet moderators are struggling to find the line between free speech and transphobia

[Ereshkigal]

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/mumsnet-moderators-trans-rights-debate

Digested read: Why can't Mums stick to talking about biscuits and Ant and Dec instead of having opinions about issues which concern them? And why can't we call them goady names? And why are they so mean? And why is it allowed?

Comments from MN moderators are measured and reasonable, however.

This article uncritically presents doxxer Emma Healey who put women here at risk from TRAs as a noble whistleblower.

Other Mumsnet moderators express similar pride – although only under the cover of anonymity. Only one of the moderators I spoke with would give their real first name, two did not want to reveal their age, and none would chat over the phone. One moderator did not even want WIRED to include the year she started her job at Mumsnet for fear of being identified.

Hmmm, I wonder why that would be, Amelia? I don't think it's MN feminists they are afraid of now is it?

Another piece of poorly researched, biased nonsense.

The decision to monitor the word “cis” in particular is unusual, as this label is not usually considered an insult

Hah! Cis is fucking offensive. No usually about it.

The author also claims "TERF" is considered to be a slur used to discredit opinions but doesn't admit it is actually a slur, usually accompanied with an act of violence such a DIAF.

A huge quote dump from Susie Green next to praise of Emma Healey.... well. You wouldn't expect anything else from wired.co.uk really.

The screeching outrage in response to Hebe just saying that they're trying to be fair and achieve some sort of balance is hilarious. Someone needs a nap!

What is it with this recent trend for heavily biased female journalists to write bad articles about MN? I think that is 4 in the space of a few weeks.

Some ackowledgment of the work that goes into keeping this forum up, important given what has happened to Twitter and Wordpress in the last week, and a chance to offer and to the mods.

I did briefly think of buying a set of the Adrian Harrop mugs he was offering on his twitter feed for the MN office as a Christmas present, but the logistics/morality became too much.

However:
"The decision to monitor the word “cis” in particular is unusual, as this label is not usually considered an insult."

I consider "cis" an insult, as do most people here. Which linguistics expert do Wired think should decide on language around this debate, and what should offend ordinary women? Again I am glad MN get it.

They're getting desperate. They can't touch mumsnet and mumsnet know it.

Mumsnet appears to give equal weight to both sides’ grievances

Heaven forbid!

The quote "there's no such thing as bad publicity" also comes to mind!

Yes, thanks to MNHQ

this label is not usually considered an insult

By whom? MNHQ know it is unacceptable to many women... because they moderate a largely female forum. Not because it's an 'insult' as such - but because of the mangling of language and thought process, the implicit redefinition (or rather, un-definition) of 'woman' which we haven't consented to. The implicit acceptance of 'gender' as more important than sex.

We could take a collection and send some holiday gift baskets to the office? Booze and chocolate seems appropriate...

For Michael, his biggest regret is “spending so much time on vexatious complaints”

I notice you didn't mention which demographic these were coming from, Amelia. Because it wasn't the GC feminists of FWR.

I can't read the word transphobia now without an eye roll because it is almost always used to describe something that's not actually transphobic ie having concerns about how self id will impact the rights and safety of women and girls; or not believing that it is possible for humans to change sex. If this is the definition of transphobia then most people are actually transphobic even if they don't admit it!

Quite apart from how this is used to silence women, this is also a setback for trans rights. Two of my friends moderate large online groups and have shown me some of the actual, shocking transphobic comments they have to delete. Most of the time its dished out by men and it is nasty. I don't get why I never see articles about this though.

Yes, thanks MNHQ.

Cis is an insult. Mis-sexing is an insult. Appropriation of the word "woman" is an insult.

stillathing I agree, and think about this more and more.

Screaming 'transphobia' at women's Wrong Think, at suggestions that men can't become women and that sex segregated spaces should be maintained (and that globally and historically, this is the norm) actually says "crack on with your transphobic remarks, assaults, ridicule and hostility, men. No need to change your behaviour. Trans people don't feel safe in your spaces - no problem, we'll just ensure that they don't have to be."

It completely normalises and legitimises actual transphobia which, as you say, overwhelmingly comes from men, not women.

Indeed. If trans people (of both sexes, given that transmen often avoid them out of concerns for their safety too) aren't safe in men's spaces then the problem isn't that women's spaces aren't inclusive enough, it's that men's spaces aren't safe. Why is it acceptable for those spaces not to be safe? Why don't men want to do something about it?

I feel quite protective of @MNHQ. They are indeed treading a difficult line. The abuse that they get behind the scenes must be absolutely shocking. Actual transphobia gets deleted quickly, as does abuse of women. Which is as it should be.

Women generally recognise the discussion here for what it is: a difficult examination of competing rights and safeguarding issues.

Thank you MN moderators. I don't agree with all of your policies. But certainly live with them if the alternative is no discussion at all

I don't post much, but I lurk alot and wanted to offer for everyone at hq and the posters for standing up.

For Michael, his biggest regret is “spending so much time on vexatious complaints”

I am sure this is true. And suspect that this is part of the reason why Twitter, Wordpress and others, have folded in the face of opposition. Threats of litigation can be effective. Not just because there is a danger of losing, but they are time consuming, emotionally draining, and costly to defend. I am sure Linda, Venice and Glinner will agree. Censorship becomes a commercial decision in our new neoliberal universe. Which makes the MN approach so much more impressive. My gut feel is that it will get worse before it gets better, in part because the tide has started to turn in the UK, something that will worry others in the Anglophone world. If MN, their mods and their advertisers can stand firm and continue to provide an open balanced platform they will have earned their place in the history of free speech. (Not so sure Wired will...)

Agreed, Dragon, I wouldn't want to read the responses that they get when they tell a vexatious complainant that whatever they're demanding isn't going to happen.

The quote "there's no such thing as bad publicity" also comes to mind

Not if it attracts the wrath, ire, and registrations from a technically-savvy group of MRAs, I wouldn't have thought.

Here we have someone claiming that there are screenshots from MN of posters threatening to rape and murder trans people. They never do quite manage to post any though.

twitter.com/pumpkaboodreams/status/1064215429965643776?s=20

In response to this series of screenshots of horrific tweets:

twitter.com/HRH_Mh/status/1064056212981993473?s=20

the website – once known primarily as a place where mums could discuss feeding routines, ask politicians about their favourite biscuits and argue about who is hotter, Ant or Dec

only by sexist twerps Amelia.

The rest of us understand that in addition to that sort of stuff, some incredibly heavy weight and life changing discussions go on here. Just because it's mainly women talking, doesn't make it less important.

and to Mumsnet. I understand that you're walking a fine line. even if I don't always agree with the decisions you make, I appreciate what you're doing.

Well, their Twitter subheader does contain the words "Hall of lies", so...