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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

WPUK Bath, fascinating & important speech by Clara Greed, Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs.

27 replies

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 20:48

Definitely worth watching:
A Woman's Place is to be heard (Clara Greed, Bath, 1st November 2018)

OP posts:
LangCleg · 18/11/2018 21:08

Seconded. The whole talk is a revelation.

Anlaf · 18/11/2018 22:32

She's just super! In a give no shits, knows her subject end to end way.

CisMyArse · 18/11/2018 22:34

I loved listening to this. It gives the 'toilet' issue a whole new thought process. She was utterly refreshing.

ContessaHallelujahSparklehorse · 18/11/2018 22:38

She was great Grin I've never found toilets so interesting!

VovoBickie · 19/11/2018 03:56

Good one

womanformallyknownaswoman · 19/11/2018 07:04

Confirmed all my suspicions - historically, women to date still have only secured roughly half the provision of men's toilets generally, and for the last decade that under-provision has been undermined further by lazy councils and organisations rebadging women's toilets as unisex/gender neutral with no impact assessment on women. Some councils & organisations have rebranded unsafe dirty, toilets eg in dark underpasses etc., as unisex and then claimed women's needs are catered for Hmm.

Many women suffer from "The Bladder's Leash" - their accessibility to an everyday life restricted by suitable, safe, clean toilet provision. It occurs to me this really should be included in your campaigns for treating urinary incontinence and POP MNHQ - @RowanMumsnet- would you review if there's anywhere in your campaigns for including women's accessibility to sufficient numbers of women-safe, suitable toilets?

I recall working at a new building where a wise man had recognised at the planning stage the need to have sufficient toilet provision for women employees - and there were acres of space for women. It was a delight going to the toilet! Equally, men got reduced provision as per their numbers. There was no riot or complaint. This is not rocket science but again a lack of basic fairness and justice.

Great insightful entertaining 15 min talk by Clara Greed.. who reminded us that there is a UN statute recommending single-sex toilet provision for women, and especially girls, and it does apply to the UK.

ChattyLion · 19/11/2018 07:34

What a fantastic speaker and what a great speech!

permana · 19/11/2018 07:47

Yes it would be fantastic if Mumsnet included this in their campaign.
I myself and so many female friends and family suffer from bladders leash.
Thank god for Macdonalds!

BeUpStanding · 19/11/2018 08:38

Blimey! Who knew a talk about toilets could be so interesting, funny and passionate?

As she says, it's outrageous that campaigners for better toilet provisions with YEARS of rigerous academic research have been almost completely ignored, and suddenly sweeping wholesale changes are made without any legal basis, purely on the demands of a tiny fraction of the population. It gives me the rage Angry

womanformallyknownaswoman · 19/11/2018 08:45

It seems like women's toilets are my Waterloo - boom, boom Grin

AnyOtherPerson · 19/11/2018 08:57

What an interesting talk. Incredibly knowledgable and arguing the GC position using facts and statistics. Brilliant.

nottakenpersonally · 19/11/2018 09:15

That was brilliant. I hope the government was listening.

PipGoesPop · 19/11/2018 09:49

So telling isn't it that Clara and her colleagues go unlistened to for years but as soon as TRAs click their fingers suddenly GNT (Gin 😂) spring up.

CisMyArse · 19/11/2018 10:20

Toilet mapping is a known thing amongst GP's and the pharmaceutical industry. I used to promote a product that was created to control bladder instability and women planning their day around toilets is a common thing. It's crazy that town planners don't take this into consideration, but....women.

Also, the toilet issue with regards to TRA's has been mocked almost and I'll admit to having brushed aside where we pee' for other issues like prisons, changing rooms, hospitals etc. Yet, this whole talk has put the toilet issue into a whole new light.

Toilets are so much more than just having a wee. I read recently that 92% of miscarriages happen on the toilet. Heavy periods and flooding are messy and takes discretion and time to change pads, sometimes knickers, which means being in a state of massive vulnerability. Toilets are about having a desperate wee with the door held open and hovering while you keep an eye on the pram. Toilets are about washing your bloodied hands in the sink, or rinsing your mooncup.

Toilets are so much more than having a wee and applying your lippy but men wouldn't know that, would they? How could they?

Next time someone with or without a penis tries to belittle me about my right to wee in a sex segregated toilet, they're
Having it, full guns blazing.

We must rise.

RowanMumsnet · 19/11/2018 15:05

Hello - thanks for this. The lack of public toilets in general (and its effect on mothers specifically as well as people with disabilities and parents with young children) has been creeping up our agenda a bit recently - we'll certainly point it out where we can when we're talking about this issue

@womanformallyknownaswoman

Confirmed all my suspicions - historically, women to date still have only secured roughly half the provision of men's toilets generally, and for the last decade that under-provision has been undermined further by lazy councils and organisations rebadging women's toilets as unisex/gender neutral with no impact assessment on women. Some councils & organisations have rebranded unsafe dirty, toilets eg in dark underpasses etc., as unisex and then claimed women's needs are catered for Hmm.

Many women suffer from "The Bladder's Leash" - their accessibility to an everyday life restricted by suitable, safe, clean toilet provision. It occurs to me this really should be included in your campaigns for treating urinary incontinence and POP MNHQ - @RowanMumsnet- would you review if there's anywhere in your campaigns for including women's accessibility to sufficient numbers of women-safe, suitable toilets?

I recall working at a new building where a wise man had recognised at the planning stage the need to have sufficient toilet provision for women employees - and there were acres of space for women. It was a delight going to the toilet! Equally, men got reduced provision as per their numbers. There was no riot or complaint. This is not rocket science but again a lack of basic fairness and justice.

Great insightful entertaining 15 min talk by Clara Greed.. who reminded us that there is a UN statute recommending single-sex toilet provision for women, and especially girls, and it does apply to the UK.

CisMyArse · 19/11/2018 17:42

Thank you RowanBrew

PipGoesPop · 19/11/2018 20:18

Great post cismyarse and you raise a really good point that I'd forgotten about as I'm well past that stage but YES to having a wee with the door ajar when you've got a small child in a pram that's never fitting in the cubicle with you.

There was NO WAY that I would go in, lock the door and leave the buggy outside. Yeah, I could have taken my child out every time but why should I have had to? If anothet woman caught sight of me it wasn"t that bad but in a GNT? Urgh.

CisMyArse · 19/11/2018 20:31

Should this utter bollocks be passed as law then I and my daughters will be super vigilant and super helpful of all women with babes in prams.

This is such a crazy crazy situation - I can't believe how much we are regressing.

ChattyLion · 19/11/2018 20:47

Thank you Rowan

OlennasWimple · 19/11/2018 21:24

Ah yes, the "sleeping child in buggy, don't want to wake them to take them into the (too small already) cubicle, so have to use the last cubicle in the row and leave the door ajar" scenario.

Something that 97% of mothers have experience of, but only 8% of fathers *

*Stats made up, but I'd bet quite a bit of money that they aren't too far out

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 20/11/2018 01:52

Placemarking to watch this clip tomorrow. I followed this fabulous speech n twitter that evening and it was even brilliant that way, I am looking forward to seeing it for real!

arranfan · 20/11/2018 06:18

The phrase "bladder leash" is so apt.

The other part of this is the number of people for whom IBS is of the severity that toilet mapping is essential. I know people who can scarcely be persuaded to leave home when they have a flare because they're too apprehensive of a toilet on a train being out of order or public lavatories being closed.

Grief knows how people with various degrees of Crohn's, IBD and similar cope with the increased closure of public facilities.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:17

Here is an interesting piece of historical study:
'Sexism in the "Bathroom Debates": How Bathrooms Really Became Separated By Sex'
Yale Law & Policy Review, Vol. 37, No. 1, 2018
by W. Burlette Carter

Abstract
This article challenges two widely-embraced theories about how public intimate spaces (e.g., toilets, locker rooms, showers, etc. hereinafter called “bathrooms”) first became separated by sex. The first challenged theory claims that the very first instance of sex-separation in public bathrooms occurred in 1739 at a ball held in a restaurant in Paris. Under this first view, sex-separation first emerged as a sign of upper-class gentility and elitism. The second challenged theory argues that a consistent practice of differentiating bathrooms by sex did not emerge until the late nineteenth century. According to this view, bathroom sex-separation was imposed when authorities overreacted to the notion of the intermingling of the sexes as women entered the workplace during the Industrial Revolution. Thus, the second view holds that bathroom sex-separation is rooted in sexism, paternalism and outdated Victorian notions of modesty.

This article provides evidence to show that, while widely embraced by media, both of these theories are wrong. The author traces the 1739 Paris ball to its origins (a ball celebrating the wedding of the daughter of Louis XV), and demonstrates that scholars misinterpreted that event. Moreover, she demonstrates that bathrooms have long been separated by sex, and that the primary reason for that separation was securing safety for women and children in an atmosphere of harassment. Indeed, the sex-separation laws that emerged during the nineteenth century labor movement were among the earliest anti-sexual harassment laws in the nation. They did not fail because they sought to protect women; they failed because they did not secure similar protections for male-bodied victims. At the same time, the author argues that some lower and middle class sexual minorities and others sometimes wanted or needed different rules. She theorizes that a common "safe space" was the masquerade balls. But even when they created such spaces by consent, and adopted intimate space approaches to suit their needs, authorities later forced them to abandon these approaches. Seeking to preserve their power positions, upper class sexual minorities may have cooperated in these suppression efforts.

Historians erred in recounting the history of bathrooms because they misunderstood the language of earlier eras, they failed to sufficiently consider women's history and they ignored the condition of the poor. Thus, as they propose an explanation of sex-separation that advances the interests of some sexual minorities, they offer a narrative that oppresses women and the female-bodied generally, especially those in the middle and lower classes. Such histories erase evidence of women's historic struggles with sexual assault and sexual harassment. They similarly ignore the struggles of the poor for safe intimate spaces.

Women and others must push back on approaches that contort women’s history. They are rooted in sexism and patriarchy, even when they may be intended to advance freedom for other groups."

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3311184

OP posts:
LangCleg · 10/01/2019 14:53

R0 - thank you! My evening's reading sorted.

R0wantrees · 10/01/2019 14:57

Just passing it onto FWR from Twitterland!

OP posts: