Husband convinced there is no glass ceiling anymore

[Stickywhitelovepiss]

This is on the basis that a number of senior positions including PM are held by women right now, and 10% (!) of FTSE 500 CEOs are women (apparently).

Please help me get it through his head that this doesn’t mean the glass ceiling has suddenly and miraculously shattered across the board.

Exactly that on the 10/90 ratio!

DH thinks women just “don’t want” to work at that level.

Which doesn't mean your DH isn't being wilfully dim about this!

I had a conversation with a middle aged white man who was convinced that he did not get a job in the media (he’s not in the media currently, but is an expert in his field) because of PC nonsense.
He insists that it would go to a ‘minority woman’ and was incredibly bitter.
I did not have the heart to tell him that although he is amazing at his job, I think he would not be great in TV. The thing that struck me was his total outrage that a minority woman would have been as good as he would have been; it was inconceivable to him.

Positive discrimination exists, think it would be naive to suggest it doesn't. But some positive discrimination is required for things to equalise.

Men will of course complain about it, its not necessarily those men that benefited in the past from discrimination the opposite way that are being penalised but a new generation. Guess those are the breaks.

ROFL - DP and I work in the same industry. He's stayed on track whilst we've had 2 kids. He works all hours in hopes of the big payout, whilst I pick up all the slack with the house and kids.

I'm hugely lucky because I've been able to keep my hand in freelancing, with some good contracts from contacts made before I had kids (thank god I had kids late so could make those contacts). I am excelling. I am earning as much as he does whilst doing 80-90% of house and kids, and it's bloody hard work (only doing it because if things go well we'll be able to retire in the next couple of years). Earlier in my career, and still to a certain extent now, I've missed out on opportunities and contacts because I'm a woman, and therefore my boss didn't want to take me on a sales trip somewhere, or my boss doesn't feel they can go out for dinner and beer with me (and especially not on to whatever else they get up to according to DP). It stings, but some of these contacts I get work through, only feel they can work with me because they also know DP, and know therefore it's safe to work with me, and DP sometimes networks with them almost as my proxy.

So is the ceiling there? No.

Is it still a much harder battle for women? Hell yes.

Is some of that kinda of our own devising? Sorta - I mean, I could tell DP that we're over, that he has the kids 50% of the time - but my contacts would then have to pick sides, the kids would suffer (we were talking about something else, and DS1 casually said "oh, yeah, like when dad's looking after us and he forgets to feed us" as if it was the most normal thing in the world), my life would be no easier, and aside from this general issue, I rather like DP. So perhaps I've made my own bed here a bit - but there was a big spoonful of societal expectations dumped in there.

So where is your partner getting his information from about women, since it isn't you?
It sounds like he belongs to an MRA led group.

Micke
The ceiling is still there, go back and read your post and see the contradictions in it.

''Earlier in my career, and still to a certain extent now, I've missed out on opportunities and contacts because I'm a woman, and therefore my boss didn't want to take me on a sales trip somewhere, or my boss doesn't feel they can go out for dinner and beer with me''

You got the promotion because your bosses and contacts trust your DP.
There it is. That is the glass ceiling. Its irrelevant how hard I work in that company, I don't have any means to break through it the way you did.

You are married to a moron. Explain to him that if he isn't a part of the solution he is part of the problem. It is usually the men who deny the discrimination who do most of it.

I'm not sure it's clear cut either.

I believe the pay gap favours women until around the age of childbirth. What happens then is debatable. Some say it's the glass ceiling and others seem to believe that it's changed priorities and the knock on effect of lost earnings and lower promotion prospects having been absent from the business.

Anecdotally, having worked in a team which was 80% female and with most around 30yo due to the job experience required, my experience has been that many of my colleagues embraced motherhood and wouldn't have wanted the father to be the caregiver - I almost got sick of my female colleagues bringing in babies and all the cooing that went with it.

The other aspect is that many women seem to focus on the career whilst single but are then seemingly happy to change priorities and focus on family life when they are married and more financially stable. My sister certainly doesn't miss her stressful management job.

Interesting debate on the topic.

"I believe the pay gap favours women until around the age of childbirth."

How?

perhaps?? youth is valued. Youth is ''purchased'' with a good salary. As many employers may be competing to hire the same young people/women in a way that they're not competing with each other to hire the ''mum returners'' and I hate that phrase but it was used to me.

But then when women are returning to the work place after having had children, they pay the price for parenthood in a way that fathers dont.

Parenthood costs women. Not men.

for anybody on netflix, does this link work? short documentary

I believe the pay gap favours women until around the age of childbirth.

Even though 40% of managers avoid hiring women of childbearing age - wether or not they have, or intend to have children?

www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/12/managers-avoid-hiring-younger-women-maternity-leave

I have been in more than 1 job (same industry) where I have found out the equivalent men / lower are being paid more than me.

When it comes to pay gapy, it is fascinating how people will never say "oh that's bad" but immediatly start coming up with excuses as to why it is fair and reasonable. They will tie themselves in knots. Women as well as men.

I think it's because poeple like to believe the world is fair + "feminists" get a bad rap and so talking about this stuff is already seen as a bit "off". The men can get very defensive as well.

In the recent pay gap data my employer was between 40 and 50% gap.This was in line with similar employers.

We got a video from the head of HR saying the gap was entirely down to exec levels, as they had done a more detailed review acorss roles and bands and were confident that things were fine.

They were however not prepared to share a copy of that report

I am changing jobs and looking forward to a massive pay rise.

Structural inequality needs tackling, that is complicated and difficult.

For individual women, if you want more moeny then you need to change jobs every few years. Private sector anyway. This is standard advice but stil it's eye opening when you do it. I am getting a massive increase! But, that only puts me where the men I work with at the mometn are already, and i have more responsibility.

This probably should have a thread of its own (if there isn't one yet) but somewhat relevant here. If a significant proportion of women are held back from progress or quit their profession altogether because of sexism, that is bound to affect the 'pipeline' of women who can reach the top.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stink-of-sexism-rises-from-royal-society-of-chemistrys-me2-expose-tnsc0lj0l?shareToken=d479f90c6e63813bce0f413e68c16721

I recently posted to ask about returner programmes because I met some women who were all attending a assessment day for entry-level jobs and their calibre and experience shook me to my core that this was what they were competing for:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3424868-Women-Returner-Programmes-Experiences-Please

They were all women who'd had children/various caring responsibilities - the waste of talent is a societal evil.

^"I believe the pay gap favours women until around the age of childbirth."

How?^

Because women earn more than men until around 35-40yo. Additionally, they get promoted more aggressively if they stay in the workplace and don't have kids.

The video I posted discusses this.

I do appreciate that some women are likely discriminated against upon returning to work but this isn't representative of all women. I find it odd that there's no expression "men that lunch".

I find it odd that there's no expression "men that lunch".

Well, no it’s ‘lads who lunch’ actually coz alliteration.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/focus-lads-who-lunch-v8mdmdbgc2p

I wonder if they'll end up being traded in for a younger model.

I agree with your points ScottChegg.

OP, does your husband also believe that there is no racism now because (a) Obama was US president, and (b) almost half (11 out of 24) of the players in the current England men's football squad are black or mixed race?