Massive aversion to the phrase 'as a feminist...'

[maniacmagpie]

I have a huge aversion to being labelled a feminist. I'm not afraid of holding beliefs and I'm not afraid of having a load of nefarious things read into the things I say - if they're not true they're not true and if they are, I'll discuss them.

What I take issue with is the entire idea of politics as identity. I don't understand what 'can a feminist do xxx' is supposed to say. What does that even mean? Is the thing being done a feminist thing or not? I also seem to find that it's used as a stick to force people into agreement - people saying 'I am a feminist and I believe this, so you must not be' or 'if your feminism doesn't do this it isn't feminism' and so on.

I sort of feel like hanging on to a label stops people from actually critiquing their own beliefs - they just say what someone else tells them they have to say to fit the criteria. I find it easier to say 'I subscribe to this school of thought' or 'I lens my politics through these basic views'. Perhaps I'm hedging too much though, I'm not sure. I expect much of the time this may be a distinction that isn't important.

Thoughts?

I didn’t know lens was a verb now but it works for me.

I can't imagine finding it easy to say 'I lens my politics through...'. What a peculiar turn of phrase.
Labels like feminist are shorthand. It's useful to have a word to give a vague idea of where you stand, because giving a full explanation of your views all the time isn't always practical. Everyone who's got any sense knows that feminists are on a spectrum and csn hold a wide range of different views.

I agree. Feminism is an activity not an identity

I'd still call myself a feminist but what I mean by it is 'one who does (as best I can) feminism'

I think using a phrase like 'as a...' is usually unhelpful and a bit wanky. I have used on occasion when it has seemed specifically relevant to a topic, but not as a general intro for anything much.

The trouble with some labels is that people hear them and make all sorts of assumptions which then have to be unpicked. But, tbh, that's what communication is for, so in the overall scheme, I don't think labels are a deal breaker as long as you don't do knee jerk tribalism.

I’m not a femenist full stop. I believe in a lot of fenenist principles but that doesn’t make me a femenist in the same way that believing in god doesn’t make me a Christian and believing that all people are born equal doesn’t make me a communist. I make a point of not supporting anything I don’t believe in 100%. I can understand why people do-it is much easier to reform from within the ranks than by arguing against but that isn’t for me. Political movements are definitely something that can be construed as an identity. This is true especially when you are talking about something as contradictory as ‘feminism’ without any qualifiers or subcategorisation. If anyone says they are a femenist but can’t tell you what kind I would assume it’s an identity thing rather than a having rational thoughts or beliefs thing. Those are also usually the kind who tell you that if you believe that the sexes are equal that makes you a femenist like it or not. Some people just aren’t that bright.

Knittink yeah I do get that it is a weird phrasing, and I am in general too verbose. I do get what you're saying about 'feminist' as shorthand. I suppose it depends who I'm talking to, and I've been burned heavily by people saying 'I am a feminist so [this thing that I do which does not help women and girls in any way shape or form] is feminist'.

Everyone who's got any sense knows that feminists are on a spectrum and csn hold a wide range of different views. the key bit there being 'everyone's who's got any sense'. For whatever reason, I run continuously into people who do not think that a wide range of different views is an appropriate way to properly be a feminist and it is in that context that I brought this up.

I suppose it's a matter of who you're trying to talk to and what you're trying to communicate - I absolutely agree that shorthands are a good thing - provided they read into it what you mean and not something else entirely. I think I may just be averse because so many people around me have been happy to imprint a point of view that is literally the opposite of what I hold, that I've all but given up on anything but being extremely verbose and extremely precise on what I am trying to say.

I realise this in itself is also not helpful. :(

Tallulah I like your turn of phrase a lot. I may start using it...if you don't mind :)

One of the advantages for me of giving myself the label 'feminist' - or radical feminist to be more precise - is that it provides a sense of belonging, an immediate solidarity with others who broadly share my views/passions. That's important on a simple human level but in the current political context it helps me find the courage to speak out. I don't think I'd be brave enough to do so if I didn't feel I was part of a collective. I don't start sentences with 'as a feminist' but politically I'm speaking from that vantage point.

Honestly, whatever words you use to describe the things you believe and hold to, someone will misconstrue you and get it wrong.

I resisted calling myself feminist for a long time, even though I hold very strongly indeed to core tenets of focusing on the rights and protections of women and girls. I spent a long time involved with fundamentalist thought, and that kind of 'Must sign up to every doctrine' thinking was hard to shake off, and sometimes still is.

But tbh, I get the same shit by introducing myself as a Catholic, so eventually, you just learn to run with it and accept that sometimes you are going to have to say, "No, that's not what I believe"

Not at all Magpie

FloralBunting I have had to restrain myself from basically saying like you, that the phrase 'as a...' is 'a bit wanky' so many times it's unreal. It's so frustrating! I generally find it's used to mean 'I have a unique perspective that you don't have and therefore I am right'...often disregarding all the ways in which I also fall into the category. I try not to use it in return but I have been sorely tempted when my temper is running short. The labels comment and proviso are spot on.

Racecardriver agree mostly, I sort of see the argument about labelling people who believe in equality of sexes as 'feminist' is helpful to the degree of making people realise that it's not just about being a man-hating lunatic (I will quite happily wear that badge in the sense that someone calling me that doesn't scare me, but I digress), but I also see how vapid it becomes when people don't do anything to support said beliefs.

I'm proud and happy to have the label 'feminist' but I don't think I've ever started a sentence with "As a feminist I..."

(But I might have!)

The problem I see is that as soon as you label yourself feminist, then people start to make judgments about you, what you ought to do and whether you’re “the right sort” of feminist.

It’s not a word I would use to describe myself in conversation, unless pushed into it. But I am one. Other than by my profession, I rarely label myself with anything.

I hope that with the resurgence of feminism, which is reflected in the intense activity on these boards, that more people will stop worrying about the label and start fighting for whatever aspect of women’s rights are under pressure.

To me, if someone started a sentence 'As a feminist...', that would simply mean 'As a person who believes in equality for women...' (i.e. anyone who isn't a mysogynist arsehole). Certainly there are people who would interpret the word feminist in their own way and make assumptions about what a feminist should think. But that's true about pretty much anything you say about yourself, not just actual 'labels' like feminist.

For example if I said I don't like the label 'atheist', I prefer to say that I do not belong to an organised religion and do not believe in god, I doubt that would stop people making assumptions about things they generally attribute to atheists.

I think that if you'd have a similar aversion to someone saying 'As a socialist I...' or 'as a conservative...' 'as a working-class person...' etc, then it's just the situating of views within the context of an identity-claim that you dislike, which I can understand.

If it's feminism specifically, I'd be curious as to why that is.

I suppose there is the issue with the different feminist 'waves' attaching very different meanings to the term. I'd treat 'as a feminist I feel empowered by high heels and porn' as oxymoronic in the same sense that 'as a socialist I fully support libertarian free-market economics' is. But some people wouldn't.

WomanOfTime I don't use any other political 'identity-claims' like socialist, libertarian etc., now that you point it out. I will sometimes refer to things that are materially true but rarely in a 'as a...' way. I may use something like my age or sex or student status as a shorthand to tell people what sorts of experiences I have had, so I may say something like 'I am a student and this is why I have not spent much time navigating taxes', but avoid saying 'I am a student and therefore I know more about this thing than you' (tbh since I usually use it as a shorthand for the things I don't know, I'm struggling to come up with anything sensible...).

I think your comments on the usage of politics as identity to make oxymoronic claims is spot on.

When you're wondering about why I'd specifically have a problem with feminism are you referring to the aversion that many women and girls seem to have of being 'hairy man-haters'? I'll admit to having had that fear in the past, to my shame, and having had to work through it. I cheerfully accept that people hold those assumptions now, because I realise those descriptors are intended to scare us into being 'cool girls'.

BlardyBlar Agree massively. I found that people seem to spend a lot of time worrying about making sure they were saying things that fitted the criteria that somebody else had decided meant 'feminist'. I feel sometimes like they're trying to collect labels to make themselves look good rather than actually doing anything useful to oppose the disadvantages of women and girls.

Knittink the atheist label is quite an interesting parallel that I hadn't thought of. I would happily say 'I am atheist' if someone asked me my religious affiliations (or lack thereof).

I definitely understand that avoiding labels isn't necessarily going to stop people making assumptions, but it does put me in mind of some of the discussions I've come across where men will straight up admit to being ok with sexual assault - as long as you never call it it that and merely describe it.