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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA Response from Ed Davey, MP KIngston & Surbiton - Lib Dem

44 replies

noddydognoddy · 09/11/2018 09:42

This response arrived this week from Ed Davey, my MP:

Thank you for writing to me asking me to attend a meeting to listen to a presentation from an organisation called Fair Play for Women, on the possible reform of the Gender Recognition Act.

Regrettably I was unable to attend. I have however been listening to different sides of the debate and trying to develop my own thinking, given this raises issues and principles I had not previously considered.

My party - the Liberal Democrats - have been considering the matter in formal policy groups, so I thought I should at least share the positions my party have reached to date - albeit, I myself need to reflect and listen further.

However, let me set out where the party seems to be.

Liberal Democrats have formally welcomed the discussion around the GRA, as it is designed to address genuine concerns and further greater understanding.

The Gender Recognition Act currently allows transgender people to have their lived-in gender legally recognised. Issues such as access to gender-restricted spaces and services are covered under the Equality Act, which incorporates much case law from the last 30 or so years.

However, the current proposal, as you say, seeks to go further and allow self-identification - something that various groups have raised concerns about, arguing, for example, that this could potentially place the rights of self-identifying transgender people in conflict with the rights of others, particularly women.

Liberal Democrats have set out first that only respectful and evidence-based discussion can resolve any conflicts - perceived or otherwise. We have noted that while it is absolutely true that women often struggle to have their voices heard, it is similarly true for transgender people who often find themselves the subject of ill-informed and misleading comment.

One possible starting point is the Equality Act. This along with various public order offences govern access to gender-segregated spaces and services. Any request to exclude transgender women from women-only spaces must be justified under that law.

One additional factor being raised is that transgender women also experience sexual abuse and domestic violence, and already access appropriate women’s services to assist them. Such services assess the risk any possible service user poses. Any woman, whether transgender or not, can be excluded from such services if they are deemed to place themselves, other service users or providers at risk. Given the lack of incidents involving transgender women in women-only spaces, there has to be strong case to change the existing law.

The publication of the all-party Women and Equalities Select Committee’s report on self-identification has led to some concerns - but it is only a report: it did not change the Equality Act nor any of the exemptions legally allowed. It was partly an exercise in gathering evidence and opinion. Like others, it has found that in countries such as Ireland, Norway, Malta and Denmark, there have been no reported adverse effects of a self-declaration process.

Liberal Democrats understand that the government intends its consultation on reform of the Gender Recognition Act to involve discussions with interested and affected groups, which will include women’s groups. Women have not been and will not be silenced during this process, Liberal Democrats will ensure this continues to be the case.

The number of transgender women is relatively small compared to the number of women overall, so it is unlikely there will be any substantial effect on data recording. It is the Equality Act that covers the concept of perception, so that if discrimination occurs on the basis that someone is perceived as a woman, then this counts as sex-based discrimination.

The current gender recognition process has been identified as cumbersome and costly, as well as demeaning to transgender people – they never meet the panel and there is no right of appeal. Other identity documents, such as passports and driving licences, have been obtained by self-declaration of gender for decades. The recommended changes cut an anonymous, bureaucratic process and give some dignity back to transgender people.

Whether by righting past wrongs, protecting citizens, or increasing freedom, Liberal Democrats believe that legislation defending rights and liberties protects individuals and drives opportunity for many under-represented groups. Liberal Democrats will continue to fight for the rights of these groups, including the rights of all women.

So the thinking in the party is certainly moving towards embracing some version of self-identification - though we are keen to see what the Government consultation reveals and what measures Ministers eventually propose.

I am conscious of my own responsibility to study this issue more closely before rushing to a judgement.

Therefore I am pleased you have contacted me about this - and would welcome any further comments.

Yours,

Ed Davey

Rt Hon Sir Edward Davey
MP Kingston and Surbiton (Liberal Democrat)

OP posts:
MsMcWoodle · 09/11/2018 09:48

So sick of this - isn't there a thread somewhere about the 'no problem in other countries' nonsense. Perhaps he'd like to talk to the women in Canada being sued because they won't wax someone's lady balls.

noddydognoddy · 09/11/2018 10:16

This is the first time I have contacted an MP and I am disappointed with the response.

I would like to write back with a list of all the 'no problems' self-ID has produced but TBH I don't see the point. The Lib Dems are now the party of Aimee Challoner and most MPs seem too fearful of being seen as un-woke.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 10:17

Maybe ask for a meeting? He wouldn't be able to avoid the issue so much in person.

Anlaf · 09/11/2018 10:19

I think that's copy and paste and prob written by aide.

Yes please go to a meeting with him with a point by point refutation of his letter

Mumfun · 09/11/2018 10:22

Noddydoggy very well worth writing back or ask for a meeting. DM me if you want to know more.

R0wantrees · 09/11/2018 10:32

Such services assess the risk any possible service user poses. Any woman, whether transgender or not, can be excluded from such services if they are deemed to place themselves, other service users or providers at risk. Given the lack of incidents involving transgender women in women-only spaces, there has to be strong case to change the existing law.

This demonstrates a failure to understand the nature of assessments for women using refuge services etc.

See Karen Ingala Smith's speech:

Furthermore even if this were the nature of women's services risk assements, Ed Davey MP must surely concede that if the Prison service with its access to considerable resources eg pre-sentence reports, time etc failed to prevent the rapist and child abuser Karen White being placed in female estate, it is inconceivable that a small charity providing an emergency response would be able to do better.

SecondRow · 09/11/2018 10:32

The number of transgender women is relatively small compared to the number of women overall, so it is unlikely there will be any substantial effect on data recording.

I think it would be very important to reply to this paragraph if you can - it is so blatantly wrong. I have seen it laid out on MN before, but as the numbers of women sex offenders, for example, are so very tiny, even a handful (and as we know it is in fact disproportionately more than that) of transwomen's crimes being counted as women's is extremely distorting.

Maybe best to press for a meeting as PPs suggest?

Fairenuff · 09/11/2018 10:34

Other identity documents, such as passports and driving licences, have been obtained by self-declaration of gender for decades.

Is this true? You can self identify sex on a passport?

TiredPony · 09/11/2018 10:35

He's my MP too OP and have had exactly the same worded reply. Interesting though I thought that he said he is willing to listen to the debate rather than shutting it down. I'm trying to put a response together.

MsMcWoodle · 09/11/2018 10:40

Seriously - if anyone has a link to a collection of the actual problems in these 'problem-free' countries I would be very grateful. If not, it would be a good idea to start one.

Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 10:41

Is this true? You can self identify sex on a passport?

Yes. I think you just need a doctors letter.

catsnoozing · 09/11/2018 10:47

He used to be my MP; I've met him, he's ok. I would go and see him with your evidence.

OlennasWimple · 09/11/2018 10:51

I thought that this wasn't too bad, actually. Waffly, but it at least acknowledges some of the issues and commits to looking into it further himself

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 09/11/2018 10:59

I've met him too and he came across as reasonable. I think a face to face meeting would be the best way forward too.

EverardDigby · 09/11/2018 11:09

Such services assess the risk any possible service user poses. Any woman, whether transgender or not, can be excluded from such services if they are deemed to place themselves, other service users or providers at risk. Given the lack of incidents involving transgender women in women-only spaces, there has to be strong case to change the existing law.

This was the bit that caught my attention too - you don't need to be physically attacked to have harm done to you. In my late teens I was so damaged by male abuse that I couldn't even sit next to a man on a bus or train, my fight or flight response would be triggered and I would feel panicky. There is no way on earth I would have gone to a service that involved men. That wouldn't be recorded as an "incident" but it would have harmed me in that I wouldn't be able to receive support that otherwise would be available. Same with any healthcare. I think they're just not getting it because they have no idea what it's like for some of us.

WarmWishes · 09/11/2018 11:11

It is the Equality Act that covers the concept of perception, so that if discrimination occurs on the basis that someone is perceived as a woman, then this counts as sex-based discrimination.

Was Jacinta perceived as a woman & that's why their crime was recorded as such?

MyMPFinallyReplied · 09/11/2018 11:14

It sounds worth a letter back, or a meeting with him. Perhaps point out the LibDem LGBT twitter feed - I can't believe that MPs know that feed is done in their name.

theOtherPamAyres · 09/11/2018 12:23

It's a soft-soap reply. We know what the Lib Dems really think.

They support the notion of Self I/D. Their councillors were rude and obnoxious about the small group of women handing out Hands Off My Rights leaflets at the Lib Dem Conference. Their MPs, like Jo Swinson, keep reminding us that TWAW.

I'll start to believe that they are truly reflecting on the risks to the definition of 'woman' when a single Lib Dem politician says so. Until then, I will continue to believe that they intend to destroy women's legal status.

OlennasWimple · 09/11/2018 12:38

Yy, flag up the Twitter feed. And ask if they are comfortable with Aimee Challenor joining the party, presumably with the intention of organising and lobbying within the Lib Dems

adulthumanandtired · 09/11/2018 12:49

It’s not great but it’s a far far FAR better response than I received from my female Labour MP in a safe London seat. And she ignored my email asking if she would attend the HOC meeting.
At least this guy is open to engaging his brain and having a discussion- if what he wrote is his real opinion.

R0wantrees · 09/11/2018 13:49

RE Aimee Challenor, see article, 'IN ENGLAND'S GREEN AND PLEASANT LAND'
by Beatrix Campbell 26 Sept. 2018
"Child sexual abuse and toxic trans gender politics: a Green Party crisis"
www.byline.com/column/85

GRA Response from Ed Davey, MP KIngston & Surbiton - Lib Dem
booze2shoes · 09/11/2018 17:28

I know others are disappointed by their responses but I've handled lots of MPs letters in my time as part of my job and many of these seem a lot more considered than usual. Usually they just parrot the party line and don't go any further so I think this letter is actually quite positive as it shows he's really thinking about it and hasn't just got a minion to copy and paste from their policies.
I'd write to him again and get into some more detail as he seems open to it.

OldCrone · 09/11/2018 21:51

Is this true? You can self identify sex on a passport?

Yes. I think you just need a doctors letter.

But that's not just self-ID then, is it? You have to get a doctor to sign a document saying that you are 'living in a different gender' or whatever. I know there are some dodgy doctors around, but they are leaving themselves open to being charged with fraud if they don't actually believe that the person is transgender.

BlardyBlar · 09/11/2018 22:02

This is the official guidance for gender change on your passport:

And I would second the suggestion that you work out the arithmetic with regard to sex offenders. It really is quite a sterk reminder of the differences in male and female offending and the jump in percentage of crimes of you add in transwomen is quite an eye opener.

GRA Response from Ed Davey, MP KIngston & Surbiton - Lib Dem
OldCrone · 09/11/2018 22:11

Like others, it has found that in countries such as Ireland, Norway, Malta and Denmark, there have been no reported adverse effects of a self-declaration process.

Ireland houses prisoners by birth sex, not 'acquired gender', so the Karen White scenario wouldn't happen.

Also this
womansplaceuk.org/an-irish-woman-speaks/

Not sure what happened in this case
www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/10/03/4162881-judge-to-consider-legal-points-in-mayo-case-involving-transgender-pers

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386138-Trans-woman-argues-they-can-t-be-tried-in-court-as-they-were-a-man-when-they-committed-the-crime

It's harder to know what's going on in the other countries because of the language barrier, but there is this character in Denmark.
twitter.com/mrhenrywimbush/status/968445772755857408?lang=en

Ibi-Pippi Orup Hedegaard has legally become a "woman" thanks to Danish self-identification law. He sued a gym because they didn't allow him to get naked in women's dressing area.