Help me discuss/debate/argue with my father

[Catren]

Hi mumsnetters, I'm hoping you can help. My df has a history of arrogance and patronising behaviour particularly towards my dm and me (and other women), and regularly objectifies women. So not exactly your garden variety feminist. He has come round to the idea that the gender pay gap is Not Good, and acknowledges that women have it harder in a lot of ways.

He does however seem to justify this with a sort of historical/evolutionary/ biological argument, that the baby having weaker sex have always needed strong males to run things, hunt for food and protect them. He believes that we are where we are because the default is the above, and we're slowly chipping away at this but it takes time and i shouldn't get so stressed about it. He also doesn't believe in a 'patriarchy' running things their way, that no one group is making decisions to keep women down, and that as time goes on it will just get better. But it appears to be the responsibility of women to fix it - through things like general strikes.

He also sees sexism as the same (in importance, severity etc) as 'height'ism or 'ugly'ism where in his eyes tall good looking people are more successful. So why are we just focusing on women?

He also doesn't really believe in rights as an argument in itself.

Help! I need some basic facts and evidence to throw at him as he isn't interested in feelings and emotional 'nonsense'.

I'm definitely not trying to be goady, this is an honest post. Also if you could point me in the direction of some good online resources that would be really helpful.

TIA

I'd start by having a long talk with your DM.
Who made the big decisions ?
Who picked the schools you went to ?
How old is he ?
If my DF was alive he would be in his 90's, and he was never rude and patronising to women.

You need Inferior by Angela Saini, she goes through all the arguments and debunks them.

E.g. in societies where women were gatherers they provided the bulk of the food as hunting is unpredictable, particularly when it’s large prey.

There is also plenty of evidence that women hunted too, even while carrying babies.

If women acted this selfishly there would be literally no one to care for him in his old age. When men disregard women's needs, rights and freedoms they continue to depend on women being far less selfish.

Thanks budgie I'll do that. From memory he made major decisions but as he worked away a lot it was my mum who decided day to day things and the school situation as we were with her the most. He's in his early 70s. Definitely not suggesting all older men are like this, I used to think so when I was younger as that's all i knew. How did your dad see these issues? Did he talk about it?

Thanks jelly. I'll get reading. From an evolutionary perspective he also says that men fight the battles so had to be the leaders. I'm thinking of listing some badass women who led armies of men, although he'll just say "that's the exception".. argh

sarah thanks for this, i like the idea of bringing it to the household level rather than societal, as that's where i tend to falter.

I think my dad would have been like that, but my mum put him straight
Actually you have made me think about things in a different way.
Both of my parents lost their fathers at a very young age.
This was in the 1920's, so they both knew that their mums were incredibly strong women. They had to be.
They had to do several jobs just to get by.
I had never thought of it as making them broad minded, but actually it did.
They both had so much suffering in their early lives, that they saw what was important, and what was just (to them) trivial.

Really interesting budgie, how early experiences and their parents shaped them. My df didn't get on well with his dm, definitely didn't respect her, and same with his older ds. Might be part of the problem. I feel sorry for my dm as he often dismisses her opinions - i often disagree with her but will stand up for her right to be heard. Not sure it helps!

why are you so invested in changing your DF's opinions?
honestly, life's too short, unless it's actively harming someone I'd concentrate your energies where they can do most good. Recently we (DP and me) went to stay with his DM and her husband. We had to sit through a constant stream of negative comments and misogyny re what was on TV - which is a huge screen and on constantly so hard to ignore. If we'd had young children with us I would have felt a duty to challenge it, for their sake, but as there weren't, I just try and ignore. He is 80+

But her right to be heard is important Cat, so yes I agree fight for her. As child politics was always discussed around the dining room table.
As a teen I probably talked a lot of rubbish but no one said Budgie you are silly.
I have always been confident expressing my views, and I think that comes from my DPs.

I have asked myself this often newtlover. I guess since i have a young daughter I would prefer if he showed respectful attitudes to men and women equally, and his opinions did rub off on me in terms of my self image when I was younger. I don't think I can change his views entirely, but it does offend me when he says sexist things and I don't think he should get away with it - he's otherwise very fit and healthy so I'm not striking up heated debates with a confused, poorly old man if you see what I mean?

I think if you have young DC who are exposed to his views, that does mae a big difference. But I still think you might be better just saying
'oh Dad, really, you do talk nonsense sometimes'
and debrief later with the DCs.