Email from Girl Guides

[purplebutterflybiscuits]

I have finally had a reply from my complaint to girl guides. I was wondering if anyone could help me in how to respond. There are two parts that I am particularly unhappy about.

1. "The Equality Act 2010 says that organisations like Girlguiding which provide single-sex services should treat trans people according to the gender they identify with."

Sex or gender, which is it? And is this really what the equality act says??

2)"In reality, we’ve found this comes up very rarely. When it has, we’ve worked WITH EVERYONE, including parents when appropriate, to balance needs and make sure every girl feels comfortable. This has included organising separate facilities for anyone who wants or needs them. We support anyone who asks for alternate accommodation or facilities, not just trans young people" But then goes on to say "Data protection law means we have to protect the privacy of every member’s personal information, and keep it safe. It is illegal to share personal or sensitive data about an individual without their permission, and this includes sharing that a trans person is trans."

How are girls or their parents supposed to ask for separate accommodation from male bodied people if they aren't being told about it? This seems contradictory to me.

Any help most appreciated.

Well done on raising this with them. I’m not an expert on the equality act but I thought that it includes the scope to retain single sex facilities where there is a legitimate need for these (which I hope includes safeguarding children). Hopefully someone else can provide the letter of the law here to help you. If not then try looking at the past threads about Girlguiding here as I’m sure it’s in there somewhere.
Your second point is excellent and very concise - I’d just send that back to them as is and say you look forward to receiving their clarification on this matter.

It really is unbelievable that Girl Guides are taking this stance.

I've had an email too. All very well meaning, etc. But totally refusing to actually address the points raised.

I came here as I had one too. Kind of miss the point. A kind of "there there we want the best for all girls, stop being disctiminatory!"

1) "The Equality Act 2010 says that organisations like Girlguiding which provide single-sex services should treat trans people according to the gender they identify with

This quite honestly isn't true.
They've been coached by Stonewall and Mermaids et al into believing for it's true but transpeople, with or without a GRC, can be excluded from a same-sex space if it achieves proportionate means to a legitimate aim. This is an infuriatingly vague turn of phrase, but the EA2010 lays out that Girl Guides can absolutely turn away transgirls if they wanted to.

There's a post by Datun somewhere that explains it all. I'll try to dig it up and will post if I can find it.

@AgnesBadenPowell can you help with this at all? Sorry to @ if it’s bad form!

A GRC gives some advantages in some circs, but is irrelevant anyway as only adults can get one.
I also feel that insisting that gender questioning young boys are actual girls, isn’t giving them much room to change their minds as they go through puberty.

I agree that their interpretation of the Equalities Act seems to be wrong, but somebody else can probably explain why better.

I would also be asking them why they feel they need to be a single 'gender'. What do they think gender identity is, and what common characteristics do they think girls have, if not physical? Why are they excluding boys? Do they think boys can't share these characteristics? Does a girl who identifies as a boy automatically not have these characteristics?

Who is deciding whether a trans child is eligible to joint the girl guides and on what criteria? Is it the same for each group? If there are no guidelines, how do they know that discrimination isn't happening?

Even if this comes up rarely, they are making a statement about who they believe girls are - please could they define clearly who their organisation is and isn't for.

The Equality Act 2010 says that organisations like Girlguiding which provide single-sex services should treat trans people according to the gender they identify with.

It really really doesn't.

This has included organising separate facilities for anyone who wants or needs them.

Do they mean that girls have to sleep separately if they don't want to sleep in the same space as someone with a dick? I suspect it does....

I would point them in the direction of EHRC's submission to the GRA consultation and its remarks on single sex services/organisations. In particular, how it feels the exemptions in EqA should operate. Particularly pages 26 and 27, which deal with overnight accommodation.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/consultation-response-gender-recognition-act-18-october-2018.pdf

FFSFFSFFS that’s exactly what it means which as the OP points out it is bonkers, because they also refuse to let anyone know if someone with a dick will be present. Totally lack of informed consent.

They don't address the risk assessment of penises in (what were) female only spaces either

On another guides thread a poster had a reply from (I think) ehrc saying that guides could choose to be single sex if they wanted, or single gender.
The ehrc guidence makes it clear in a number of cases that you can exclude a tw without a GRC from single sex activities etc if there is a good reason.
There are two levels here too. Participating in guides and sharing changing/sleeping spaces.
They have been schooled by lobby groups to one interpretation of the law. They think they are likely to be sued by a trans girls parents for excluding. They are probably correct.
I wish there could be a judge's ruling on this somehow because I think they are wrong on the ea.
The evidence heard in hoc yesterday was interesting and hopefully there will be much better guidence in the future.

Makes my blood boil.

Thanks Girl Guides for taking away the right of teenage girls to say no to dicks in their private spaces.

This needs to be tested in a court of law. What happens if a trans girl wishes to board at an all girls boarding school? Would the head have to let them share a dorm with girls, and not tell other girls parents?
Is this already happening?
We have a trans boy at our sons boarding school, but were only informed about it when a newspaper broke the story.

Hi OP. I’m happy to help you but I won’t be able to look at this until tomorrow. Work commitments taking over today!

Thanks everyone, Agnes that would be great.

I'm hoping someone has already done this but it wouldn't hurt to do it again. Could you write to the Chair of the GG board of trustees. A very short, straightforward letter, stating your concerns about them enabling male and female GGs to sleep in the same spaces. Ask how this sits alongside their safeguarding/child protection policy and ask whether they have informed their public liability insurer that their policy allows male and female GGs to share accommdation.

Charity trustees have legal duties, so it would be good to approach them by writing to the Chair.

I have also written to their insurance company - but no reply.

I had a similar email & sent a reply which asked for, amongst other things, a clarification as to whether they were a mixed sex single gender organisation, or mixed gender too, which would be best to ensure inclusivity for transboys & non-binary young people. Because I genuinely do believe that if they are going mixed sex (which they clearly are) then they should properly embrace the inclusivity & ditch gender stereotypes.

I don't know that The Equality Act 2010 applies to children. And it is not about "the gender they identify with" it is about gender transition.

100% agree with SirVixofVixHall

"A GRC gives some advantages in some circs, but is irrelevant anyway as only adults can get one.
I also feel that insisting that gender questioning young boys are actual girls, isn’t giving them much room to change their minds as they go through puberty."

"How are girls or their parents supposed to ask for separate accommodation from male bodied people if they aren't being told about it? This seems contradictory to me."

So how would they stop a natal boy who identities as a boy from joining? I mean the boy could have a neutral name like 'Sam' that could be a boy or a girl. Would they rely on Sam admitting he was a boy?

happydappy2. Blimey. How does the school handle the sleeping arrangements?

Who is deciding whether a trans child is eligible to joint the girl guides and on what criteria? Is it the same for each group? If there are no guidelines, how do they know that discrimination isn't happening?

When this guides stuff first came up, my friend misunderstood the posts about it and actually emailed Guiding to ask if its true they are now mixed sex and asked if her son could join. The reply stated that Guides is only for girls and as such her son would not be eligible. I do wonder what they would have said if after the waffle, she replied that he now 'identifies' as a girl. Might actually ask her to do that and see what they say, as their reply mad it 'clear' that they are female only, while not being female only!

This has included organising separate facilities for anyone who wants or needs them. So if all the natal girls want this, will it be accomodated?