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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Naomi Firsht in The Times

21 replies

TimeLady · 31/10/2018 06:17

She's not saying anything new but thankfully The Times does seem intent on keeping this issue under the spotlight

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-am-not-a-walking-cervix-or-a-menstruator-i-am-a-woman-7q2rdp55p?shareToken=7c921c45c0bc0aea61c6b98d81974731

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 31/10/2018 06:23

Good morning TimeLady we must be on a similar newspaper reading schedule. I just made a thread about that too Smile

LizzieSiddal · 31/10/2018 07:28

Great article, thank you for sharing.

Gileswithachainsaw · 31/10/2018 07:32

Good article.i will be intrigued to see the comments

MsMcWoodle · 31/10/2018 07:33

Thanks. I thought it was a good roundup of the issues.
The forced language changes really disturb me.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 31/10/2018 07:37

Thank you. Excellent article. To the closing words of the article I would add: transwomen are not women. Women do not have penises. Women are adult human females.

ChattyLion · 31/10/2018 07:38

Good article- she’s quite right! ‘Woman’ IS being banned, it is being removed from billboards, adulterated with other letters and alternative spellings... to distance itself from the word woman ‘only’ meaning ‘woman’ Hmm

Because it might hurt someone’s feelings? Not make them feel ‘included’ in language that isn’t theirs to be included in? When they are free to make up their own words for themselves? WTF?! Nobody should be forcing the world to be changed around them like this.

Our collective noun ‘women’ and individual description ‘woman’ is being taken from us without our consent and treated like a politicised, controversial, swear word. A dictionary definition of the word is now controversial and attracts censorship and threats of violence and rape threats to women.

That is a mad and dangerous state of affairs.

What do we think about those other countries that don’t allow people to use their own language and make them talk in the majority state-approved language? (Like Turkey with Kurdish speaking people would be an example). We condemn them because we think they are extreme abusers of human rights and people should be free to speak their own language. And we fear, rightly in that case, that with langauge oppression and censorship also comes many other forms of oppression and violence. Like actual violence. Not ‘literal violence’.

So while we condemn states like that rightly and urge our leaders to urge them to change their ways, we also need to look to our own political discourse and cherish the freedom of speech that we have here in the UK.

Because in the UK in 2018, we have the same principles of freedom of speech and expression under attack for a group (women). The UK government is proposing to make ‘woman’ legally meaningless because they suggest legally anyone should be legally able to decide to be one.

While in a some social settings, and in the party-political sector , government-funded public (nhs and education) sector, and in the charity sector some people seem to have frequently and unilaterally just gone ahead and changed the meaning of this word... erasing ‘woman’.. replacing ‘sex’ with ‘gender’.. to ‘get ahead of the law’. Hmm

....while hardly anyone living and working outside of these sectors has even heard about it. Media are in general complicit in silencing or scared to allow debate.

Which is why this is such an important thing for journalists to write about this often and prominently and for mainstream papers to allow discussion on this. All we are risking here is someones’ hurt feelings. Is that really a justification? What about the hurt feelings of women as a class? Why does that justify this silencing of women as a class? robbing us of freedom of speech and use of dictionary-defined language? Orwell must be spinning in his grave to see this.

This is a useful recap of an article and once again not something we’d expect to be able to read in various other media outlets. That article would never be allowed on the BBC or Guardian website for example. Well done Naomi Firsht Flowers and The Times. Flowers

kesstrel · 31/10/2018 07:47

In the 1970s it was an important part of feminist campaigning that we should be called 'women', rather than 'girls' or 'chicks' or 'ladies'. It was about dignity and unity. The word itself became totemic and a rallying cry.

Now they are trying to take that away from us, totally ignorant and disregarding of that history. I feel such outrage.

ChattyLion · 31/10/2018 07:52

Me too Kesstrel

Roystonv · 31/10/2018 08:01

Marvellous succinct post chatty. Those that do know are only being treated so badly by so many because most people know nothing about the issue and how it is already and will continue to affect us. I keep asking how 51% of the population can be treated as a cruel minority who need re-educating but no-one has the answer. Can men hate us that much. It is Orwellian.

GatheringHerBrows · 31/10/2018 08:40

Does this line contain a typo?

There’s really no need for me to spell it out for you, though if I did it would be spelled: w-o-m-x-n.

Is it supposed to say wouldn't, rather than would? Or is it just too early for me 😣?

ChattyLion · 31/10/2018 09:10

Royston till this I didn’t know how much about the hate. I mean, I knew.. but I didn’t KNOW..Sad

JuneOsbourne · 31/10/2018 09:16

I thought the same Gathering. Looks like it should have a "not" in there. Great piece nonetheless.

It is interesting how many comments refer to having bits chopped off. There's still a real lack of knowledge that the vast majority of transwomen have no surgery whatsoever.

Stilettosandan0venglove · 31/10/2018 11:16

Brilliant article, thank you OP

CuriousaboutSamphire · 31/10/2018 14:52

Does this line contain a typo? Oh! I read it as "Given the current party line, if you did need it spelling out to you it would doubtless be womxn"

OlennasWimple · 31/10/2018 15:06

kesstrel - IMO there are factions that are not ignorant of the history of claiming the word "woman". They know all too well, and that's why they want it

WomaninBoots · 31/10/2018 15:08

I've seen two Facebook memes in the last 24hours that used the word "female" or "females" when woman or women would have been a better fit. Plus a video about a 26 year old "girl" who had done some awesome humanitarian thing... yet was still infantalised with the word "girl". And I was scared to gripe about it in case any of my friends came out with woke stuff about inclusivity and I had to have an argument. I'm not very brave. Im sorry.

AspieAndProud · 31/10/2018 15:18

Yes, reclaiming ‘woman’ for ‘adult human females’ is important for claiming it for ‘females’ but also claiming it for ‘adults’.

It’s not just saying ‘don’t call men women’, it’s also saying ‘don’t call me girl’.

loveyouradvice · 31/10/2018 16:05

this is so important....

.... and so shocking that an article like this is both brave and unusual.....

.... still can't believe Im living in a world like this

JellySlice · 31/10/2018 17:17

She's not saying anything new

Maybe not to FWR regulars, but to a huge number of newspaper-readers this could be a shocker. Thousands who go along with "be nice", and don't see the erasure that is happening in the name of Be Nice. Those are the readers she's talking too.

ChattyLion · 31/10/2018 19:41

Agree about the importance of journalists keeping on mentioning this issue in the media because it’s so poorly understood- so many people haven’t even heard about it. Shocking that the law might be changed on something so massive for women without really widespread debate and public support..

VovoBickie · 01/11/2018 04:42

I liked this one. I'm sharing it.

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