TRA anger at GC women

[FatherBuzzCagney]

Sorry if this has already been talked about before, but I've been wondering about the intensity of TRA anger at and hate for GC women.

Beyond standard-issue misogyny and male privilege, I think that it may be because it's so disruptive of the gender essentialism underpinning TRA ideology. If women are women only because they perform femininity, and that - of course, given the deeply reactionary character of gender, as seen in the BACP guidance and elsewhere - means being empathetic/nurturing/prioritising the wants of others/saying yes to men, then women saying 'no, your every last wish doesn't trump my security, my workplace protections, my identity' isn't just telling them they can't have what they want, it's challenging how gender differences are understood, which threatens the whole basis of TRA ideas about the essential nature of gender. So women being gobby, and angry, and standing up for things is an existential threat.

Obviously, this doesn't take account of the fact that some transwomen TRAs continue to act in what these stereotypical gender positions would characterise as a very masculine way - angry, violent, asserting the primacy of their own desires, making threats of sexual violence to coerce women - but they do seem to want women (natal women) to conform to these gender positions as a validation for their claims about the essential character of gender.

If that's the case then it makes the possibility of any dialogue between TRAs (at least in their current ideological configuration) and GC women impossible, because the very fact of our existence is felt to pose an existential threat to them. More worryingly, this is the absolutely classic condition for organised violence intended to annihilite a threat - in the case of ethnic difference, it's the precondition for genocide. Thankfully, the numbers are not on their side, and no doubt almost all TRAs would be horrified by the idea of going down that road anyway, but it does explain some of the extremity of the actions and language directed at GC women (threats to kill, rape, plus the Goldsmiths student talk of gulags, for example) and the attempt to eradicate GC voices by banning talks, adverts, research.

As I said, sorry if I'm just repeating something that's been done to death and I've missed, but I woke up this morning wondering about it (well, that and why the hell I'd been dreaming about something as dull as our departmental exam board).

I hadn't thought of it that way, but yes, that makes sense.

It explains why the MN FWR board with its disrespectful women continues to piss them off.

Patriarchy is enforced through violence and these people are the footsoldiers of patriarchy.

On the whole we're so accustomed to the everyday violence by which we're kept in our place that we barely notice it. We only 'see' this violence because it's in a new form.

I reckon a lot of them feel failures as men but still think they are superior to women, so pretend they are women so they can feel superior to someone - thus how they like to tell us women we are doing it wrong and transwomen are better at womaning etc.

They hate us because they can never be us, because they have been socially conditioned as males to get what they want and because we are the last line in safeguarding.
We are old and wise enough to see straight through the bullshit.

they do seem to want women (natal women) to conform to these gender positions as a validation for their claims about the essential character of gender.

I've thought the same. If being a woman is a sort of 'feminine essence', rather than a biological reality, then those of us who don't perform femininity are a threat to their world view.

I think we overestimate the thinking behind it from TRAs.

To me they are like kids demonstrating a shoddy magic trick to their mums, expecting a rapturous applause and breathless wonder at the really real magicness.
Only they aren't kids, we aren't their mums, the trick is obvious, we're not impressed, and we won't pretend.
They also know it's a trick but we're not fulfilling our assigned role of helping them to convince themselves otherwise.
We are bad mums.

To mis-quote Friends.
We know.
They know.
And they know we know they know.

This was an interesting thread about how non binary and the thinking around that is not too dissimilar from radical feminism (which has been noted on these boards before, I know)

mobile.twitter.com/oliverburkeman/status/1057328175418695680

Yip, I could easily say I was non binary but for the fact that it emphasises the gender aspect, which seems to give gender a credibility that I am uncomfortable with
One problem however is that you seem to have a choice to be none binary or woman.
I have been bullied as a child for my none binary nature. I was raped as a woman. So then Trans thing seems trivial in comparison.

Yes, OP, no wonder they want us silenced and made invisible, our very existence contradicts their sexist ideology.

Exactly, and therefore their understanding of their own identity. It explains the extremity of the rage coming from some of them, above and beyond what you'd normally expect to be directed at women who don't do the decent thing (shut up and go away).

I seems that those that are the most angry behave in classic narcissistic ways, so just saying “no” or “I don’t think so” or “ I don’t don’t agree” is literal violence to them because they CANNOT be thwarted.

They are delusional and so because most of the time they live in ways that support their delusion the fact that we won’t participate and play along induces rage.

Interesting, thanks OP.

they do seem to want women (natal women) to conform to these gender positions as a validation for their claims about the essential character of gender.

The average patriarchal-inclined man tends to get very angry with uppidity women, but transwomen tend to always be a hair trigger away from completely losing their shit. (And for anybody who thinks they're lovely people, try telling them no once in a while and see what happens. They're only nice as long as they get EVERYTHING they want.)

Beyond standard-issue misogyny and male privilege, I think that it may be because it's so disruptive of the gender essentialism underpinning TRA ideology.

I think it's worse than that. They're narcissists, which adds a whole nother level of crazy. So when the inanimate fetish objects (women) whom they perceive to be primarily responsible for validating their bottomless pit of insecurity refuses to properly serve our masters, PLUS fails to display enough feminine ladybrain essence to support the gender theories which justify their existence, a narcissist will eventually respond to such an extreme threat by a profound need to destroy.

Don't mean to scare anyone, but I expect more than one trans will be found with women's body parts in their freezer. Ed Gains, Wild Bill, a few others, it's already happened. I used to have saved the link to an archived page from a few years ago, a trans had nicely cooked and eaten his own testicles, in between bouts of cutting and drinking the blood of his girlfriend. Violent mental illness just doesn't get any worse than a narcissist having a meltdown.

I have so many thoughts on this, much of which have already been said.
The one thing I would add is that transwomen who buy into extreme trans ideology have actually been sold a complete lie. Their ideology requires hostile defence due to its fragility. That's why there is so much obfuscation, word salad, aggression, and violence. Extreme trans theory is a house of cards in a climate controlled room, built inside a bank vault, surrounded by a moat and an army battalion. If it were out in the open, a child or a gust of wind would knock it down in a heartbeat.
The fact of the matter is that it's fundamentally impossible for transwomen to become female, or erase their maleness.
They can transition to run from their male bodies or disavow their earlier "wrongly labelled manhood" all they want, but their sex and their history will never quite go away.
This only breeds resentment towards females, because the TRA sees women as this "other," this "unattainable goal," and becomes very jealous that a natal woman never has to work for her femaleness.
One of the most common questions is: "well, what's the line, when do you think that I become female?"
And the answer is - well, never. You can become trans. I won't question that you feel like you are a woman, I will treat you socially in the way you identify (within some reason, because I cannot pretend Alex Drummond is a lesbian). But that difference will always be there. And that is okay. We just need to be able to talk about female-only issues, and decide when the sex boundaries need to be maintained.
The issue is that trans activists think acknowledging sex is questioning gender identity, so they think it's an attack on their right to be trans. Which it categorically isn't. They just cannot become literally the opposite sex or rewrite the past or dictate "their reality" to everyone else.
The question of narcissism is very real, because I sometimes think it's like certain transwoman activists CANNOT understand that when you are male-bodied and walk into a female-only facility, you have changed the dynamic of that space. You might see only other females, but the females see you as a male in their private area. Females might become uncomfortable, threatened or fearful. Some transwomen activists just don't seem to be able to get outside of their own point-of-view, because they believe it's their absolute right to be in that space with females. I don't think many TRAs understand the very real nature male/female dynamics, or the need for actual female-only spaces.
Gender-critical-non-conforming women are the ultimate threat, because they represent freedom from gender roles, they've thought about the issues deeply, they actually understand the arguments, and still just don't buy these ideas. Such women are usually from the philosophical/political movements that we as a society have decided to label more "moral" (feminism/leftism). They are also females with a history of knowing what misogyny actually feels like - so can SEE it in trans activism. And all you need to do is put up a picture of Hannah Mouncey playing against females, and everyone else with a smidgeon of common sense can see it, too.

Gender critical women are a dissenting group that actually critiques trans ideology itself, making it harder to dismiss than arguments on e.g. religious grounds. They're a reminder of the biological male-ness of the trans woman, and some people might be prone to narcissistic injury and rage in response to any reminder of their sex. Gender critical women are a reminder of the sexism of trans activism, in refusing to capitulate to the submissive feminine role that trans activists seem to fetishize in women. Feminists asserting the reality of who is female, with the authority of actually being female and with knowledge of patriarchal structures undermines this idea of "cis privilege," which trans activists have decided is perfect way to say that biological males are oppressed by biological females.

And gender-critical women seem to be the only people who really know what they're talking about in this "debate." As soon as you start listening to their arguments, it's clear they make some valid points.

I was pondering starting a similar thread op - why do tra go after utterly unthreatening middle aged feminists and academics over the violent and angry men who will be the ones that cause actual violence to trans people irl?

I’ve been thinking of that saying - ‘Don’t be a supporting actress in the story of your own life’ and I feel it fits here. Tra don’t seem to see women as starring roles, we’re the selfless cheerleaders who are there to be the background to their brave and stunning transition. We’re the friend that says ‘you do you’. We’re the ally who gives up her time, effort, energy and money to ensure they get what they want. The idea we might have our own lives and thoughts and feelings and experiences they have never even considered doesn’t even seem to feature. I wouldn’t dream of speaking for transwomen because I cannot, but there appears to be no qualms the other way. You can only do that if you think women are cardboard cut out human beings without depth or nuance.

The pp who mentioned the serial killer stuff, there was a thread yesterday plopped by a tra and I did get a sense of the killer whining at the dead body, ‘why isn’t she doing what she’s told anymore?’ I worry, I think there will be violence, but not the literal violence that’s apparently erasing people from existence.

The backlash will come from men once they realise their children no longer have any protections or safeguarding left.
Once they realise they can no longer fob these males off into the 'women' box and onto women. Once it becomes THEIR problem.

We know.
They know.
And they know we know they know.

Absolutely.

Re: Tra don’t seem to see women as starring roles, we’re the selfless cheerleaders who are there to be the background to their brave and stunning transition. We’re the friend that says ‘you do you’. We’re the ally who gives up her time, effort, energy and money to ensure they get what they want.

A while ago, there was a thoughtful thread by Hope Pink and why women TRA allies are among those who enable and support the actions against GC women:

Some of these women that have been called "handmaidens" aren't going to budge. Many of them are hardened Labour / anarchist activists. They wont budge position and will stand by and even take part in the harassment, doxxing and violence against radical feminists & allies.

3. For example the attack on Bristol WNTT event wasn't organised by TAs it was organised by feminist women in Bristol. Same with London, Brighton, Cardiff & Leeds. Where there's large pockets of already active feminist women there will be counter-demos to radical feminist events.

5. The refusal to challenge other women over self ID and just write them off as "handmaidens" will make sure Self ID will become law in the UK. TA's like many other men are crap at organising and only have gotten as far as they did through intersectional feminist involvement.

The whole thread is worth reading.

twitter.com/GNCmaninpink/status/1047455815567904768