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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another MP has gone public

21 replies

MyMPFinallyReplied · 30/10/2018 09:28

I had a thread a while ago that my MP had replied to me stating his opposition to the GRA reforms. Very right-wing Conservative.

I replied asking him why he hadn't stood up to be counted, and suggested he use his regular newspaper column to do so. And then this morning.....

www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/news/hayes-in-the-house-sex-and-identity-9047705/

As his description of social media as 'daft' would suggest, he doesn't use it so no risk of a pile on for him. I'm actually quite surprised that it sounds like other people have also mentioned the GRA reforms to him.

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 30/10/2018 09:32

The pole on the page isn't fair, it confuses sex and gender.

KatVonGulag · 30/10/2018 09:36

I was just thinking that.

You can change gender you just can't change sex.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 30/10/2018 09:38

God, he’s properly in the hard right ‘gender is innate and edifying ‘ camp isn’t he? He believes 100% in gender identity going by that article

And he thinks humans can change sex

What a twonk

ErrolTheDragon · 30/10/2018 09:38

I've only skimmed it but unfortunately he doesn't seem to know the distinction between sex and gender, and neither does the poll on that page.

Some of it's fine (like agreeing on gravity) but the last sentence....urgh.

BiologyMatters · 30/10/2018 09:39

Nice clear article though.

MyMPFinallyReplied · 30/10/2018 09:54

Ah yes, the last sentence - he's rather religious. Quoted the Pope in his letter to me, goes to church every week and I've heard that he's rather against women vicars.

In his letter he was very clear that there's a difference between sex and gender, so I'm surprised that he blurs the lines sometimes in the article.

He's as right wing as they come - far too right wing to ever get my vote, but he's got a massive majority and a job for life.

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 30/10/2018 09:57

I wonder if his article was edited before printing which has confused things?

hackmum · 30/10/2018 10:32

I agree with people about the sex/gender thing, but I think it’s good, tbh, that we have a right-wing religious person on board. Religious people represent quite a large constituency, and once they’re aware of what’s going on, they won’t be happy about it. That goes for Muslims and Jews as well as Christians.

CourageEverywhere · 30/10/2018 10:41

Even with major surgery a person cannot change their biological sex. Surely he knows that?

R0wantrees · 30/10/2018 10:58

from the article,

"Our identity as men or women is based on natural biological differences. This is unquestionable and has been so since the beginning of time. If an individual wishes to change their biological sex, they must undergo major surgery to alter their bodies."

Hmm This rather suggests he believes that the removal of a penis makes a man a woman?
MyMPFinallyReplied · 30/10/2018 12:37

What has struck me about the article compared to the letter is the talk about compassion - I wouldn't be surprised if that's just to be nice and in reality he thinks the whole notion of gender identity is a load of rubbish and would repeal the existing GRA given the chance.

It's all very well him writing in a local paper, but who is actually going to see it? They don't exactly have a readership of millions. Maybe somebody on Twitter will see it and pick it up (MN is as much social media as I do).

OP posts:
CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 30/10/2018 12:39

Weren't you the one who suggested he write in the local paper?

MyMPFinallyReplied · 30/10/2018 12:49

I was - I also suggested that he join David T Davies in his efforts, so I'm wondering if he'll do anything else or if he considers himself done now. Just my musings, sorry if I'm causing confusion.

OP posts:
Andtheresaw · 30/10/2018 12:50

Actually I think that the poll should be about gender. I think that the quention is 'should someone be able to legally change gender without surgery'. It's about the GRA and an attempt to separate the old school transsexuals from the transvestites. Just worded really badly.

R0wantrees · 30/10/2018 13:06

Actually I think that the poll should be about gender. I think that the quention is 'should someone be able to legally change gender without surgery'.

There is an issue that 'gender' means different things to different people.

Rebecca Reilly-Cooper: 'Gender is not a spectrum
'The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'
(extract)
"In everyday conversation, the word ‘gender’ is a synonym for what would more accurately be referred to as ‘sex’. Perhaps due to a vague squeamishness about uttering a word that also describes sexual intercourse, the word ‘gender’ is now euphemistically used to refer to the biological fact of whether a person is female or male, saving us all the mild embarrassment of having to invoke, however indirectly, the bodily organs and processes that this bifurcation entails.

The word ‘gender’ originally had a purely grammatical meaning in languages that classify their nouns as masculine, feminine or neuter. But since at least the 1960s, the word has taken on another meaning, allowing us to make a distinction between sex and gender. For feminists, this distinction has been important, because it enables us to acknowledge that some of the differences between women and men are traceable to biology, while others have their roots in environment, culture, upbringing and education – what feminists call ‘gendered socialisation’.

At least, that is the role that the word gender traditionally performed in feminist theory. It used to be a basic, fundamental feminist idea that while sex referred to what is biological, and so perhaps in some sense ‘natural’, gender referred to what is socially constructed. On this view, which for simplicity we can call the radical feminist view, gender refers to the externally imposed set of norms that prescribe and proscribe desirable behaviour to individuals in accordance with morally arbitrary characteristics.

Not only are these norms external to the individual and coercively imposed, but they also represent a binary caste system or hierarchy, a value system with two positions: maleness above femaleness, manhood above womanhood, masculinity above femininity. Individuals are born with the potential to perform one of two reproductive roles, determined at birth, or even before, by the external genitals that the infant possesses. From then on, they will be inculcated into one of two classes in the hierarchy: the superior class if their genitals are convex, the inferior one if their genitals are concave.

From birth, and the identification of sex-class membership that happens at that moment, most female people are raised to be passive, submissive, weak and nurturing, while most male people are raised to be active, dominant, strong and aggressive. This value system, and the process of socialising and inculcating individuals into it, is what a radical feminist means by the word ‘gender’. Understood like this, it’s not difficult to see what is objectionable and oppressive about gender, since it constrains the potential of both male and female people alike, and asserts the superiority of males over females. So, for the radical feminist, the aim is to abolish gender altogether: to stop putting people into pink and blue boxes, and to allow the development of individuals’ personalities and preferences without the coercive influence of this socially enacted value system.

This view of the nature of gender sits uneasily with those who experience gender as in some sense internal and innate, rather than as entirely socially constructed and externally imposed. Such people not only dispute that gender is entirely constructed, but also reject the radical feminist analysis that it is inherently hierarchical with two positions. On this view, which for ease I will call the queer feminist view of gender, what makes the operation of gender oppressive is not that it is socially constructed and coercively imposed: rather, the problem is the prevalence of the belief that there are only two genders.

Humans of both sexes would be liberated if we recognised that while gender is indeed an internal, innate, essential facet of our identities, there are more genders than just ‘woman’ or ‘man’ to choose from. And the next step on the path to liberation is the recognition of a new range of gender identities: so we now have people referring to themselves as ‘genderqueer’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘pangender’ or ‘polygender’ or ‘agender’ or ‘demiboy’ or ‘demigirl’ or ‘neutrois’ or ‘aporagender’ or ‘lunagender’ or ‘quantumgender’… I could go on. An oft-repeated mantra among proponents of this view is that ‘gender is not a binary; it’s a spectrum’. What follows from this view is not that we need to tear down the pink and the blue boxes; rather, we simply need to recognise that there are many more boxes than just these two." (continues)
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

borntobequiet · 30/10/2018 14:08

I had emailed my MP (female, Tory) and got the usual fluffy reply. However later I emailed Maria Caulfield to say thank you for saying that women's groups had not been properly consulted and the proposed legislation should be put on hold - I copied my MP in. I got a nice personal reply from Maria! and then lo and behold a letter from my MP in the post (arrived last Wednesday) telling me she had taken notice of my concerns and I should fill in the consultation! I reckon she finally stopped to think/heard something/was spooked by my email.

ohello · 30/10/2018 14:22

Personally, I dislike the word 'gender' since it's so easy for other people to pretend that it means whatever they want it to mean. I only use the word 'stereotype' as that is impossible to misinterpret.

Freespeecher · 30/10/2018 15:50

His heart's in the right place, though he doesn't seem to have the best of grasps on the issues

Still waiting for the first Labour MP to write something similar (or better).

Might be waiting a while.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 30/10/2018 16:18

He's got the important bit, that men with no intention of really transitioning will use the loophole to access woman's spaces.
Which is the issue on the most basic level.

QuietContraryMary · 30/10/2018 17:09

I think his point is that things should be as they were in many countries for a long time, that if you want to have your 'change of gender' legally recognised, then you should have 'sex change' operation, specifically to include a castration for MTF.

I believe this would have until recently been quite uncontroversial and was practice in many very progressive places such as Canada.

Regarding the 'change of sex', although you can't do it, it's quite clear what he means, and it's a good deal more restrictive than current (2004) GRA.

barelove · 30/10/2018 21:53

Thank you John Hayes for bravely speaking out when so many other MPs stay silent on this distressing nonsense. Biological sex cannot be changed no matter how much surgery or hormone replacement drugs are given. A female born body will always be distinguishable by having XX chromosomes as will males for having XY. If male born adults want to have surgery and take hormone treatments to make them feel more like a female, that's completely up to them and no one has any business in judging them for this. However, if that male born adult then wants to insist we all call him a Woman and allow him into Woman only spaces I believe we all have a right to say no. Women only spaces were created out of a desperate need to provide a safe refuge from male violence. These female born women who need refuge deserve a male free space to recover from their trauma and whilst in such a wounded and distressed state ANY male will be considered a threat, no matter how much surgery or hormone drugs these males might have had. I find it incredible that the wants of a minority of male born people (transgenders) are being routinely put before the genuine needs of a majority - female born women and that so few people dare to speak up about it. Women fought long and hard for their safe spaces, I suggest transgenders put more of their energy into fighting for safe spaces of their own instead of trying to force their way into ours through bullying and intimidation.

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